Curses, Haunted Dolls, and Cursed Treasure
Wondering Monsters Podcast, Episode 22: Curses, Haunted Dolls, and Cursed Treasure |
Monster Ranking: 3.5 Monsters
In this episode of the Wondering Monsters Podcast, the hosts dive into one of the most enduring themes in folklore and pop culture: curses. From haunted dolls and deadly cars to Pharaohs' tombs and legendary lost treasure, the conversation explores what makes an object "cursed" — and whether curses are about bad luck, justice, greed, or something far more supernatural.
Haunted Dolls: Robert and Annabelle
No discussion of cursed objects is complete without haunted dolls. The episode begins with two of the most famous examples: Robert the Doll and Annabelle. Both have become iconic in paranormal lore, associated with unexplained movement, misfortune, and ominous warnings.
Robert the Doll, long displayed in Florida and occasionally traveling for exhibitions, is said to require permission before photographs are taken. According to legend, those who ignore this rule suffer bad luck &hellpi; sometimes severe. Annabelle, widely known through film adaptations, is famously kept inside a glass case to "contain" her alleged supernatural influence.
In both cases, the stories follow a familiar pattern: a child interacts with the doll, strange behavior is reported, and adults initially dismiss the events — until the activity escalates. Whether these tales represent genuine belief or cultural storytelling, they illustrate a powerful idea: objects can act as vessels for something unseen.
The Pharaoh's Curse and Tutankhamun's Tomb
One of the most famous examples of a cursed treasure is the tomb of :contentReference[oaicite:0]{index=0}. After the young Pharaoh's tomb was opened in 1922, several members of the excavation team reportedly died under unusual circumstances. This fueled global headlines about the "Curse of the Pharaoh."
While historians often attribute these deaths to natural causes — infections, mold exposure, or coincidence — the legend persists. The idea that disturbing sacred burial sites invites supernatural retribution taps into a deep moral instinct: some things are not meant to be taken.
The so-called curse of Tutankhamun represents more than fear. It symbolizes consequences for trespassing, greed, and hubris. Even if explained scientifically, the narrative structure resembles a morality tale — a warning against disturbing the dead.
The Knights Templar and the Myth of Cursed Treasure
The episode also explores the legendary treasure of the :contentReference[oaicite:1]{index=1}, the medieval military order dissolved in the 14th century. According to lore, the Templars amassed immense wealth through early banking systems and Crusader campaigns.
When King Philip IV of France moved against the order, arresting and executing many members, rumors spread that their treasure had vanished — and that a curse followed those responsible. The dramatic downfall of powerful figures only reinforced the narrative that supernatural justice was at work.
Whether historical fact or mythmaking, the Templar legend illustrates a recurring theme: cursed treasure often emerges where power, money, and betrayal intersect.
The Hope Diamond and Modern Cursed Artifacts
The conversation turns to the :contentReference[oaicite:2]{index=2}, a gemstone frequently described as cursed. Over centuries, owners reportedly experienced misfortune, bankruptcy, or tragedy.
Unlike mythical lost treasure, the Hope Diamond is real and publicly displayed. Yet the curse narrative persists, raising an important question: does an object become cursed because of intention, or because of the stories we attach to it?
This distinction becomes central to the episode's deeper exploration of what defines a curse.
What Makes an Object Truly "Cursed"?
The hosts draw an important distinction between unlucky objects and cursed objects. An unlucky object may be associated with repeated tragedy — like a car involved in multiple fatal accidents — but without deliberate supernatural intent. A cursed object, by contrast, implies intention. Someone, or something, directed harm toward whoever possesses or disturbs it.
Throughout history, curses have appeared in many forms:
- Ancient curse tablets (defixiones), inscribed with requests for divine punishment
- Objects planted on a rival's property to bring misfortune
- Burial goods protected by spiritual warning
- Artifacts believed to carry the influence of spirits
In many traditions, curses are tied to justice. They punish greed, trespass, betrayal, or moral transgression. In others, they function as protective barriers — spiritual "No Trespassing" signs guarding sacred ground.
The Evil Eye and Everyday Curses
Not all curses involve ancient treasure. The "evil eye" tradition suggests that envy alone can cause misfortune. Protective talismans — from Mediterranean amulets to horn-shaped charms — are meant to ward off jealous energy.
Unlike elaborate treasure legends, the evil eye reflects a more subtle belief: harm can be transmitted unintentionally. Here, the curse is not always deliberate but arises from emotional intensity — particularly envy.
Curses as Moral Lessons
As the discussion evolves, a pattern emerges. Cursed treasure stories often revolve around three key themes:
- Greed: Those who seek wealth at any cost suffer consequences.
- Trespass: Violating sacred spaces invites punishment.
- Justice: Supernatural forces restore balance when human systems fail.
In this way, cursed objects function as folklore guardrails. They warn listeners against crossing thresholds — literal and moral. Whether it's a tomb sealed for eternity, a relic stolen from a holy site, or a doll that should never be taunted, the message remains consistent: some boundaries exist for a reason.
Modern Curses: Digital and Psychological
The episode also playfully considers how curses might evolve. Could a digital curse exist? A malicious line of code hidden in a website? A cursed cryptocurrency? While speculative, the humor highlights an important point: the structure of curse stories adapts to new technology.
At their core, curses are narrative frameworks for anxiety. They externalize guilt, coincidence, and tragedy into a comprehensible story. When bad things happen in sequence, we look for cause — and sometimes that cause becomes supernatural.
Are Curses Real — or Just Stories?
The hosts ultimately suggest that intention may be the defining feature. A curse implies deliberate harm channeled through supernatural means. Without intention, we may simply be dealing with coincidence, pattern recognition, or haunting — but not necessarily a curse.
And yet, even skeptics hesitate at the idea of disturbing a tomb marked with warnings. The emotional power of these stories lingers.
Final Thoughts: Should You Open the Tomb?
If confronted with a sealed chamber promising immense wealth but guaranteed supernatural punishment, would you open it? That hypothetical question encapsulates the episode's spirit.
Cursed treasure legends endure because they challenge our values. What matters more — wealth, curiosity, power, or caution? Whether discussing haunted dolls, Pharaohs' tombs, medieval conspiracies, or modern artifacts, one lesson echoes through folklore:
Some doors may be better left closed.
For more explorations into monsters, mysteries, folklore, and the strange edges of history, listen to the latest episode of the Wondering Monsters Podcast.
Links from the Show
- Necronomicon & Cursed Books Explained
- Are Real Psychics Actually Able To Predict The Future?
- What are Liminal Spaces and Why Do They Feel So Weird?
Watch & Listen to the Full Episode
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Licensing Information
- Title: Entry of the Gladiators
- Composer: Julius Fučík
- Library of Congress (Public Domain)
- Podcast theme song version edited/arranged/mixed by Dan Swift
Unless indicated, images appear in their original form.
Images were generated using AI from MyNinja.ai, NightCafe, lenso.ai, Gemini, or ChatGPT
Transcription
*Transcription was automatically generated and may contain errors.(Music)
Baba: Down with triplicate forms, up with crayons and graffiti.
Danny C: So curses, cursed treasure, are we doing cursed objects as well? Cause I kind of prepared a little bit for that. I'm gonna save that for another time.
WDG: What's a treasure, right? Yeah, yeah, it doesn't have to be like that. One man's trash. Yes. Like I threw away a couple of those crystal skulls one time. (Both Laughing)
Baba: It's funny, you should say that. I picked some crystal skulls out of some jerk's trash one time. (Both Laughing) I had to give them away though, they kept speaking. What's your favorite cursed treasure? Do you have one? Is one eyed Willy's cursed?
Danny C: Was that, I don't know if that was cursed or not.
Baba: No, it's not cursed. I don't really think so. I mean, it would be a bad luck for the Fratelli brothers. Okay, I'm gonna do this and then I'll stop. We'll get back on topic. Fratelli brothers. Yes. The Italian word for brothers is Fratelli. Yeah. So it's the brothers brothers. (Both Laughing) I love that, I love that. Anyway, Goonies is great. Do you guys have a favorite cursed treasure?
Danny C: So this isn't a treasure per se, but it's a good story that I like. And I'm gonna throw both of these together. You have, they're both dolls.
Baba: It's a creepy topic already.
Danny C: I know, I know, I'm jumping right into it. Five monsters. Robert the doll and then you have Annabelle. And they're both very similar. There's not much that you can do with a cursed doll.
WDG: Isn't there a movie about that or something? Is there a movie about the--
Danny C: I think Annabelle, if I remember right.
WDG: Yeah, okay, yeah.
Danny C: And in typical Danny C fashion, I can only give you about half the story of both of these and we put them together in one completely fabricated story, which is fun. Yeah. But the general idea, as you would expect with a doll, spoiler alert, they come to life and they do things. Usually move around, they talk, that kind of a thing. I believe Annabelle was, no, second, first. I don't remember, one of them was the early 1900s and the basic idea, a person gets this doll and starts moving, starts talking. And then the other one I think was in the 70s and I think, I don't know if that's right either. But the one with Annabelle, that's the one where they end up putting it in this case, like this glass or plexiglass case, and they say, don't let it out, it kind of is self-contained. And then Robert the doll was an interesting one. So he's in Florida, last I heard, he actually came up to Pennsylvania.
WDG: Move there to avoid paying taxes, is that?
Danny C: Well, I think he retired, I think is what it was.
Baba: I also heard something about child support, that they're not very good at sending it back from Florida. I shouldn't tell people that. Be responsible, everybody. Oh my gosh, don't take us as role models, but be responsible.
Danny C: So Robert the doll, similar history, has to do with talking to people and moving around and whatever and getting into all kinds of trouble. Usually a kid is involved with these stories and they blame it on the doll and the parents are like, yeah, of course, whatever. But with Robert the doll, so Robert the doll is in Florida, came up to Pennsylvania as part of a, on display at some other thing. And I believe the person that was transporting the doll ended up dying suddenly. So correct me in the comments if I'm wrong. But the interesting thing about Robert the doll is that, allegedly you're supposed to ask before you can take a photo. If you take a photo of the doll without asking, then you get bad luck. If you taunt either of these dolls, bad luck up to and including death, all kinds of crazy things. But it comes to favorite stories about cursed objects. Those dolls, they have all the right pieces, I think.
Baba: Yeah, and that's actually, so it's interesting, yeah, because so the bad luck thing is a thing. Sometimes it's like, maybe we'll probably talk about, we'll probably do a whole conversation on cursed objects anyway, but like the James Dean and the whole, Oh, his car is cursed. The car was cursed and Alan Guinness, Alan Guinness, that's Obi. No, that's Alec Guinness. Alec Guinness, Alec, I'm sorry.
WDG: I think he's since passed away. (Laughing) They're being here with us. Unless, well, he could be sitting there as like, that's a ghost, you know. In blue, kind of like.
Baba: The one I told you was true from a certain point of view. Yeah, the, so your name was Alan from a certain point of view. Through a glass darkly. Yeah, through, or yeah, he warned, what's his name to get rid of that car, because it was cursed. He'd be dead in a week or something like that, and he'd wind up, he'll end up dying in it, right?
WDG: What I think of the cursed treasure and curse, like and especially cursed treasure slash cursed object, Tutankhamun, right? The treasure or Tutankhamun, both something that's ancient, but also modern going back to like, obviously there seems to be explanations for the people that have died that uncovered it and stuff like that, like, oh, it was like, they got some kind of bad air or mold got to them or something like that, you know, killed them, whatever it was. But it's like, but still like, it did sort of kill them, like uncovering the end of the, in a sense, whether that was the way the curse worked out or not. It's like, it seems to have taken out the people that uncovered it. I mean, and obviously it seems that a lot of, you know, like Pharaoh treasure was cursed, but the thing about like that too, is it also links that like very, like at least like very ancient history of like ancient civilization history and like very modern things. And that'd be how, that's where we get like the mummies curse and all that cool stuff, you know? So it's you and common's treasure.
Baba: And probably one of the general rules for not getting cursed is if you find a tomb, leave it to F alone.
Danny C: So grave robbing, that's out, you shouldn't do that, is that what I'm hearing?
WDG: Grave robbing is okay, you said tomb raiding. Oh, Jesus.
Speaker 4: Thank you for the clarification, yes.
WDG: Go grave rob all you want. You're not gonna get anything. Well, notoriously cursed.
Baba: You have a lot of rich people shoot themselves into space and wait for the, you know. (Laughing)
Danny C: Talking about tomb common, I know even less about this than the dolls that I just spoke about. The Bassano Vase is like a Roman vase from the Roman times. And I think it had a note saying that whoever owns this would die or something like that. Does anyone?
Speaker 4: The Bassano Vase.
WDG: This is a very odd audience to research for themselves.
Baba: This is a podcast where you do all your own research. (Laughing) Sorry guys, I'm probably gonna-- It's a cursed silver vase from 15th century Italy. Hmm, that was older than that, my mistake. Yeah, well, I mean, Italy is-- Italy's older than that. (Laughing) The land that it's on is even older than any of this stuff. Yeah. (Laughing) Yeah, it's silver, you could definitely sell it. And I definitely would if you get it, because probably don't wanna be in possession of it. It's cursed. Curses. I'm not gonna go down that rabbit hole. The Templar Knights were associated with a cursed treasure story. The Knights Templar, as we all call them, I don't know why I just called them the Templar. (Laughing) Templar comma Knights. Yeah, so the Knights Templar were a, they were a military order during the Crusades. They were, they're involved in a lot of crazy conspiracy stories and origin stories of different organizations like the Rosicrucians and the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn and the Freemasons and-- The Illuminati. The Illuminati, various versions of the Illuminati. A lot of times the Knights Templar wind up in there. They're also involved in the story of the Baphomet. This is great, we can go on any of these. There's blank cards everywhere here. So the, but there's this, so there's this story that they amassed, this vast fortune because they were doing excavations under the old temple in Jerusalem.
WDG: And that they amassed-- They wasn't thieving it during the Crusades, right? What's this?
Baba: Yeah, well, and they're, the Knights Templar actually did wind up with a lot of money, but actually one of the reasons was a very clever, clever workaround around the taboo of usury or charging interest on loans and things like that. So forever, nobody could really, people didn't, Christians avoided doing it because there was a taboo against it. And so they found a way around it by basically running out the equivalent of old school safety deposit boxes. So they're like renting out the space. And so when wealthy folks would travel from say, like Northwestern Europe, I guess, like England, et cetera, on down and they're traveling to the quote unquote, Holy Land, they would be, they'd need protection. And they also wouldn't want to be carrying lots of gold and wealth and things like that. But when they get there, they're gonna want all their bling. So the idea was that the Knights Templar in one place could write a code that you could then give to the Knights Templar in the Holy Land and cash in. So it was like the forerunner maybe of like routing numbers or something like early international banking.
WDG: Basically slash bankers slash like loading sharks.
Baba: Yeah, yeah. I mean, they're even like a military order, you know? So it's like, but so they made a lot of money. They made a lot of money doing all this kind of stuff and related things. And so King Philippe of France, I'm sure he had a number, sorry, sorry. I didn't know we were gonna be talking about them in detail, but here I go. And then the, and Pope Clement, I believe, Clement who are all buddies, decide that they wanna get the money. And they're like, let's get these guys. They're, I will say that they're worshiping the Baphomet which might be the severed head of John the Baptist if it's the invisible version or might be, that might be some other kind of pagan thing. It's taken on all kinds of cool forms since then. But, and so they arrest them all. And the, if I'm not mistaken, it's October 13th, Friday, October 13th, which is not actually where Friday the 13th goes back to, but it was a Friday the 13th. I like that one though. And they arrest them all and kill them all. And at the end of it all, there's Jacques de Molay who is the, for which the de Molay Society is named, which is a Masonic adjacent or Masonic group. And he curses, Philippe and Clement and probably the treasure. This is where it gives us the story contrast. And they both die like within like a couple of years or like a year if I'm not mistaken. Our beloved listeners, you can fill in the, you can put the frog DNA in our dinosaur of a story. How long did it take for those two to die? And that'd be a great little clip for YouTube. Hello, you're taking two to die. There's nothing to do with our thing today. Yeah, so there you go. The cursed treasure, no one knows where it is. It's only believed to be there because that was the premise under which all these guys were arrested. There might not have been any treasure, but the idea is that there's this curse associated with it. So it's this funny mythological treasure, unlike the hope diamond, which I believe is 100% real diamond. Well, it's like Smithsonian.
WDG: So that's what I mean. (Laughing)
Baba: Depending on, so anytime after you hear this, questionable whether it'll be there or not. Smithsonian is not what it used to be.
WDG: There's probably a lot of curse. Between like, you know, the British Museum, the Smithsonian, there's probably a lot of cursed objects just floating around in vast archives.
Baba: I'm a fan of the institutional curse.
WDG: Curse treasure, should we just get like, so the like archetypal idea, right? Of like curse treasure. It does seem to have something to do like if people are, it's like wrongfully taken, right? Or it's like, or it's something that's like, you know, treasure that was like, you know, it was either like spiritual or religious or like, which that kind of covers also like the pyramid, you know, like the, you know, pharaoh treasure or stuff. Or like, I think the hope diamond wasn't that taken from India, like, and it's like-- The story
Baba: was like carved out of a statue and-- Yeah.
Danny C: So they believed it's actually just mined and not part of a statue. So it was kind of a debate over the origin of it.
WDG: Then like the Templar or something like pirate treasure, like Captain Koon's treasure, right? Like that's, those are like, both like, they sort of got that through ill-gotten gains, but then like the treasure itself is sort of cursed, it's, you know, as well. Like, you know, like, because even for them, like the Knights Templar seemed to have met their end on the surface. And those pirates usually did as well, unless you were like very lucky, like Captain Morgan to like, you know, lead on like a good, like trans become less pirate and more polite.
Baba: Less pirate and more rum distillery mascot.
WDG: More like, you know, the like, you know, whatever governor of, you know, a colony. And you can, you can, you can eke out, you know, like a decent retirement. Potentially a knighthood that gets revoked, you know, posthumously.
Baba: Well, that's the best way for it to do, because oftentimes if it gets revoked prehumously, then there's a bad, it involves your humusosity.
WDG: Yeah, so, so, so, so it's often like, so curse treasure is usually ill-gotten, or in the case of like, fairy, like, like fairy treasure. Like when you get into like burial mounds and things or like other world treasure that's guarded by like, you know, from the fairy realm, like that's like people getting that, it often ends up. Lapricons. Yeah, yeah, so there you go. Yeah. Yeah. So it's like, you know, There's a topic for you. Yeah, yeah, so it's, so, so.
Baba: I think the Loch Ness Monster story would be more interesting if the Loch Ness Monster were allegedly guarding treasure. That would be pretty good. I bet people would be more apt to look for it. Once you put some money around something, people, I'll go for it.
WDG: Well, in that case, you get lots to say like, like curse, like, A lot of people, I'd say profitable.
Baba: A lot of tragedies associated with Loch Ness. Stupid people going after the treasure.
Danny C: I think, I think before we started recording, you talked about something making a good short. This would make a good short. Did you know the Loch Ness Monster guards treasure? You've never heard this before. You only hear it here.
Baba: We're revealing things here. Don't believe us? Put it in the comments. There's buried treasure down below in the comments. Find the cursed comment and win the free t-shirt. Kind of a double-edged sword.
Danny C: It's interesting though, talking about cursed treasure, it doesn't seem like there's really any reason why it ought to be cursed. Because typically from the little I know about cursed treasure, the person who it belonged to is no longer around. They're God, you know?
Baba: All right, so I do have some things to say about that, but I don't want to interrupt you in case you're-- That's pretty much it. All right, well, I already did that. This is so mission accomplished. That's how you know it's me. Garfield's Halloween and the cursed treasure, right? They were coming back even if it meant returning from the grave. 100 years from that night. Now, what do you think the likelihood was that they were gonna live to be 130 from the year 1820 or something like that? Of course they're gonna have to come back from the dead to get that treasure. And so, I don't know. There's an association there. There's grimoires, okay? So here we go. God, I had to drag grimoires into it. Class mobility has not often been a thing in the past. And so it's kind of like, how do you move from being a poor person to a rich person? Find out here on our podcast. (Audience Laughing) I feel
WDG: like that's a different, like, no.
Baba: You get a grimoire. That's on stock. And you find some, so now it's like, it's like what, like a lottery. Get your lottery. Which, whatever. But the grimoires, people would get grimoires for the purpose of hunting treasure because it was one of the legitimate ways that you could move from being a poor person to a rich person. If you found treasure and like hired enough people with weapons and things to protect you before people found out that you've got the treasure, then like you could hold onto that treasure and now you have money too, you know? And you're playing in the rich person's game. But like, look, that's not historically accurate description of how that would actually happen. But like, this is the idea. But the idea also was that treasure was cursed. That like, it was almost like, think about like the stereotypical greedy miser clinging to their, or the Skeksi at the beginning of the dark crystal that's like clinging to the scepter, you know? Or like, "Ah, I'm always gonna be emperor." "I've always got a cling on. "This is my gold." And then they, you know, crumble into dust and stuff. But, which doesn't really happen. Skeksis actually just kind of go emotionless in real life. Where's it going with this? People, help me out. Curse it.
WDG: So, I would say like, yeah, so I think the, like, if it's like, I just said not belonging to anyone, but I think like, in that sense, like with like the Pharaoh's treasure, that's like their stuff still. So even though they're dead, because they're in the afterlife, you're not supposed to be taking their stuff. They still have power because they made it, you know, hopefully made it using the secret book of the dead type thing to get across, you know, and get into the afterlife. But there's stuff on earth that's still their stuff. Or at least representative of the things that they were supposed to be taking with them to the other side, right? So in a weird sense, like that, so the curse on that is like, to keep you from messing with their stuff. I probably just destroyed grave. I really probably didn't work that well, because like, you know, most grave sites at some point have been, you know, like with that kind of treasure have been robbed. I think it was only because like, Tutankhamun's grave was like so lost, you know, like and historically lost as well. You know, like it was just kind of like, you know, he was given a more like for a Pharaoh, a pretty quick burial type thing, you know, wasn't that, you know, it's like kind of a deal because there was all political stuff going on, you know, people getting ousted and things and you know, so that kind of stuff. It's like, so most of the time I think the curse is, I mean, they might've worked. I mean, I'm sure the people that stole it might have met their end. I mean, probably they're largely in a criminal type of organization, you know, or, so they probably met their end somehow. (Laughs) I'm sure who's, and I can imagine like, if it wasn't for getting caught stealing, it's like given the like religious nature of, you know, the items, if I'm sure if the government of the sorts caught you robbing tombs and probably, you know, like the punishment probably wasn't very.
Baba: Anyone seen Conan the Barbarian? The Barbarian specifically, not the Destroyer. And there's the whole thing about, I don't wanna give a spoiler on this, but like there's like a character that makes a bargain for another character and pays with their own life late in the movie. And it's kind of, but it shows up in a way that's just kind of like natural. All right, sorry people, if you haven't seen it, is that, I'll spoil the movie. It's really cool in its own way. His female companion bargains for his life and with the spirits that are coming to take his soul away. And then she gets killed later by Falsadun. James Earl Jones, he gets killed by James Earl Jones. Sorry guys, I didn't mean to go on a Conan tangent. But it's the curse. It's like that sometimes you make a deal with spirits and you get paid back. Sometimes you just encroach upon somebody else's spirit stuff and you get caught in the crossfire kind of thing.
Danny C: Well, let's handle that for a second. So, you know, in the very, very, admittedly, the very little research I've done on this, you know, it seems like these objects, whether it's a doll or a Porsche or aircraft parts or whatever, they're cursed because it seems to be the case that once someone has it, something bad happens. And then that kind of trend, that trend kind of continues. It doesn't seem to be the case where it's like child's play movie-esque, you know, where someone's dying in a factory and they're like, "Oh, I'm gonna put my spirit into this doll and I'm gonna come back and kill people." Like, it doesn't seem like that happens, at least from what I've discovered. It seems to just be like bad luck attributed to these things.
Baba: Right. I mean, there is the notion of the institutional curse. And it's kind of like the witch that screams from the burning stake that, you know, they curse your entire bloodline, you know, and everybody's born with this curse, you know? And that kind of happens in like, in stories, but a lot of the times, like the curse stories we have are like, yeah, they're like, if they're not straight up hauntings, and you see that's where it gets weird, okay? Cause like, so curses are kind of bad luck, but usually, so there's the purposeful curse. And then there's like the, there's the purposeful curse. That's like the, I cursed this institution or your bloodline or you, you know? And there are different ways that that happens. And then there's like the cursed object, which is kind of like the unlucky object. And then there's like that weird kind of like trespassing curse, like where you were taking something that wasn't yours and the thing that owns that thing. I'm just saying thing, you know, that owns that thing or person that owns that thing gets you for it. Or like, you know, there's an injustice being done by encroaching and trespassing on this territory. Like robbing religious, I don't know. Exactly, yeah. Which we'll have to talk at some point about Saint relics and how they were like bodies of saints were stolen from the cities and taken to other cities to draw tourists. And like, it's a big old crazy mess, but talk about like magical objects and cursed objects and things like that. There's, that's all.
WDG: That's what I mean. So like in the weird sense then, like something like the James Dean card, that's just like bad luck. That's just a, that's just an object that's bad luck. It's not like cursed in the sense. Like it's not, cause I guess if cursing in the traditional sense requires you to be like, I'm going to put a spell on this, this object, if you mess with this, like, or you do something with this, it's like, it's now cursed versus like, I don't know. Like there's just been some bad, like, like, because if you get that idea then, then that like particular, like, like in the case of like that car and its owners or whatever, leading to bad misfortune, it's like, but no one did that intentionally. Like there wasn't like, there was no like, I put a curse on this car. If anyone drives it again, it's like, Like when they're, yeah, exactly. But it's like, so it's like, so it's like, Someone
Baba: that was like assembling the car and hadn't been paid and then like,
WDG: they're like. Yeah, I'll show them. Like it's like, I mean, or there's like the, like Japanese curse, like swords, right? The Murasum, what is it like Muramasa blades or whatever. And they're like, they're supposedly like, they're made by this one swordsmith and it was like, they like, and supposedly they're like, these particular blades are cursed. They drive people into bloodlust. They need blood to quench the, like, their, you know, it's like, it's like, so there's like a, like that's like, but there is like, there's a craftsman who's making it. And there's like this intention put into it. You know, it's like, versus like the, again, random object that just is associated with bad, right? So it's kind of a, yeah. I feel like it needs to like, for it to, should be a curse. It should be like somebody said or did some kind of insert spell, like sacrifice something that.
Baba: Like sometimes there's almost an implication that like, in some situations, particularly where there's like the justice angle that maybe the spirits of the dead or spirits of demons or gods or things are the ones that cursed you for crossing that line. So it's like, it's almost like, boom, something did fling a curse at you, or they're out to get you now. And that's the net. That's how the curse is working, you know? Now that second one starts to look more like a haunting because you're talking about a persistent behavior by an entity rather than they shot you with a bad luck arrow. And now there's not bad stuff happening to you. And so like, it's almost inextricably linked with this idea of luck and bad luck.
WDG: And. But it also seems like it's pretty much like a finality too because there's like this kind of like, you're usually like dying when you get a curse, you usually end up like, it's very rare that like people were like, well, I got this curse and then I reversed it and everything's now. It's usually like people end up dead. You know, there's not a lot of like coming back and it's like, it's more of like a warning to you, the non cursed person, stay away from
Danny C: this stuff. Well that or they get rid of the thing. So I remember which doll it was, but one of the people moved and they left the doll in the attic and then new people moved in and like, oh cool, a doll. And like, I think there's a little girl and like, and then the same thing allegedly started to happen. So they don't, they don't always die. Sometimes they like, I'm getting out of here, you know?
WDG: That's, I feel like that's really a bad thing too. Like you didn't even resolve your own thing, just pass the curse off to somebody.
Baba: It's kind of like this, this is a buff by pay grade type thing like, yeah.
WDG: But you didn't warn the person like, they're like, yep, there's evil dolls lurking in the attic. Don't touch them if you want to buy this house. It's pretty cheap.
Danny C: You obviously mentioned that after you signed the final line and settlement, you know? By the way, evil doll in the attic, I'm out.
WDG: Yeah. What about like people that try to collect curse things? That's a whole different weird stuff like the, you know.
Baba: Do they collect them to protect people like Jack in Friday the 13th, the series? Or do they, do they collect them to have a bunch of power?
Danny C: So, I wish I could answer that. I almost could have, but I cannot. So as part of my other podcast, I tried to interview the owner of, this person was the owner of a shop. They sold cursed objects, but I didn't get a chance to interview them at all. They said the timing wasn't right. And I was like, ah, that's cool, no problem. You know, I'll try again later. And then we were in Gettysburg this past weekend and there was a, I think it's a shop also that has curse. I don't, I don't think you can buy them. I think it's more of like a museum kind of setup, but you can see different cursed objects. Really? In Gettysburg? In Gettysburg and in Lincoln Square.
Baba: Oh, the more reason that place is haunted as hell.
Danny C: Oh yeah, I didn't see anything though, but anyway. There was, there's another place down in Lincoln Square and up on display, I'm pretty confident it wasn't Annabelle, but I'm pretty sure it was a replica of the little Annabelle doll inside of a glass container. Oh wow. But yeah, I think it was just a replica at that particular spot, I'm really sure.
Baba: I'm enamored by the idea of having a job selling cursed objects. Now I might give Hypnos as a run for its money. That's an interesting thing to say at parties.
WDG: Why don't you want to go, I mean like, do you think you'd want to sell like good objects as cursed objects? I don't know. I feel like there's a lot of like return customer. Yeah, a lot of business.
Baba: A lot of business folks, when they coach you on business, they say sell to rich clients. So to answer your question. Oh, okay, so if you want to do that. On why you should sell cursed objects. Sell them to-- I could do that. I'll sell it to rich clients. Or, or. I've got some cursed objects.
Danny C: Another type of client could be someone you want to get back at, but like you're being nice to them. You know, like here, happy birthday. I got you this cool doll. It's a collector's item. Don't get rid of it.
Baba: One of a kind. Yeah, yeah, no, I think that'd be a fun job and a really cool job. (Laughing) If you guys have a job like that, listeners, let us know.
WDG: Let us know about it. So like, does that mean like in the future, when it's going to be like our cursed treasure, like bad code of like bad Bitcoin or something like that? Like, like some wealthy like oligarch, it's like, all my Bitcoin is now cursed. (Laughing) It's like, you blew up my rock.
Baba: They put it on some like online posts. So it's actually like a digital curse.
WDG: Yeah, yeah, it's like, yeah. It's like, and then like, now it's just out there in the feed and anyone that like, you know.
Baba: You just start, you just pipe a bath of piss off, a thing of salt. (Laughing) Sacred burned wood. The curse is good. Yeah, you just, you just pipe against it. Well, this is, this sounds like. Pipe whatever they said backwards.
Danny C: This sounds like next generation computer virus, you know, where you have, in the code itself on a webpage or something, you have like a section in there that people can't see that's like, curse is all visitors.
WDG: Yeah, so it's telling the end user agreement.
Baba: They're all cursed. Instead of selling VPNs, people just sell some kind of, some evil eye type talisman digital. The evil eye, that's another one. Now that's one that's a very common, a very common form of cursing. And it's, it can almost be accidental. Like it's not necessarily like somebody looks at you and they're like, their car, I want their car and I want them to have misfortune. It's like, well, and also people, okay. A car, but anyway, I want them to have misfortune. It's more like someone looks at you and they have such jealousy and they want what you want. And it kind of like unconsciously, like it curses you and you start to have misfortune. And then there are necklaces and things you can get and where that protect you from. I mean, there's the Italian horn is a version of it. There's also the, I feel like there's a Turkish, oh yeah, yeah. The Malekis. Yeah. (Laughing) Yeah, the, the,
WDG: the Malekis. You got the, the, the horns, I guess you're warning it off. So anytime you're throwing out horns at a heavy metal show, you're technically warning off evil, I guess.
Baba: We might work against whoever's performing, depending on your. But if they're also doing it, it just traps evil in the air. It does, a cone of power. That's how you do it. Right over the mountain. Whatever the mosh pit. Yeah, so curses. I was, I was, no, the, that there's a Turkish, I think it's Turkish. It's like a little, it's got a black and blue and white and it looked like an eye to protect me as the evil eye. It's actually really cool looking. I've been seeing those crop up recently and glass, glass jewelry, but.
Danny C: Does anyone know, is there anything in the U S like in the law books about putting curses on people?
Baba: Cause 100%, I am 100% sure. But how do you do? Yeah, like, but probably if you get paid for it.
WDG: It's like the fortune telling thing, like we talked about in our fortune telling problem, like some scam.
Baba: I'm sure somewhere there's still something on like the practice of witchcraft and judgment. But like, don't even get me started on how hard it is to define actual witchcraft. Anyone who wants to call themselves a witch, I tell you, take permission and do it. Like there are so many, anyway.
WDG: But like that. I mean, cursing people might fall under free speech. You know, that's.
Baba: I mean, at this point in time, straight up threatening people seems to be free speech, but yeah, like more sane times, you
WDG: couldn't do that stuff. It might be protective things like, but the, but I imagine like, again, like selling, like, I think like even like, you know, there's like a, like you're talking about the curse dolls or like magic spells and things like that. When people were selling that stuff on eBay, I think they still do. They eventually had to put a thing that like, this is just for entertainment and it's not real because like the eBay cracked down on like people claiming that like this thing was, you know, this type of object or whatever. It's like, you know, like it was, it's real, you know, kind of
Baba: depending on state laws. So I imagine.
Danny C: I think. And so there's organizations like that try to avoid it.
Baba: And they don't want to deal with like return policies on the spell didn't work. And like, it's,
WDG: I want my money back to spelt it. Like people, if
Baba: you're buying spells, it's street rules. It's street rules. If you bought it from somebody and it didn't work, I guess go hire somebody to curse that person, you know, a more reputable, better, better, a better worker.
WDG: Yeah.
Danny C: I'm picturing a platform where you can actually buy smells from people and curses. I'm like, you have like the two star reviews.
Baba: Oh man. Yeah. So, yeah. So, but the, the notion of the curse, I mean, again, it's like a lot of the times it's, is bound up in the idea of luck. It's bound up in the idea of justice, about somebody doing something that's wrong. Sometimes it's not, sometimes it's straight up. I want that person's romantic partner. And I'm going to do this curse to try to break them up, which is pretty f-ed up. If you ask me, actually like it just, this is not enough love magic out there people. You gotta go. And then just, you know, anyway, I'm getting out of this. So escaping this. But, so sometimes it's just, I want somebody something I'm going to curse them, or I don't like somebody I'm going to curse them. Somebody is trying to marry my granddaughter and I think they're a scumbag I'm going to curse them. And so like things like that, but again, it's kind of like this, it's bound up a lot of times in this idea of justice and something's not right, something's not fair. And I'm going to, and this curse is somehow going to balance the scales sometimes.
WDG: Well, I think the cursed object thing too is probably something like in a, recent like folklore kind of tradition, like to keep you from one, to like recognize like their sacred spaces and like damaging sacred spaces is like wrong. You know, like that's like the idea, like when people do that, bad things happen to them, right? Or like kind of greed, you know, it's like, if you're a greedy and you do these things, you'll meet like an untimely end or like have a string of like bad things happen to you. Like, so it definitely seems like, you know, and it's like, and the people that got this stuff in the first place, they kind of usually met a bad end. If it wasn't like a religious thing, I mean, sometimes it might even be, okay. But it's just like, yeah, it's like, they kind of like something like they're sort of like, you know, essentially like greed or lust for power or something like that, turn this object or this treasure into something, you know, evil, you know, it's like, you know, that can't be undone, right? It's like, so you should just stay away from it because you don't want the same thing to happen to you. But it would only happen to you if you also like wanted to get this object and wanted to be this greedy or powerful or, you know, like, you know, like this person. So it's kind of like, you know, so it's almost like the, by not going down that path, that's how you stay away from the curse, right? Like, you know, it's kind of like a threshold, right? That's good.
Baba: You know, so. And speaking of which, and speaking of thresholds, because that's a famous place to lay a curse for somebody, right at their doorstep, right there. But the, so the idea of the cursed object that you say like cast into your enemy's yard, or you like, you leave a cursed object in their home or something like that. Like it's a, that's a thing. And so a lot of times when, if you look into like, so the earliest example of people doing curses, watch that's always an outlandish claim when you say the earliest. A very early account we have of people doing curses are things called defixiones or defixions. Not sure exactly how that's said. I think that's the first way I was right. But I believe it starts with the Greeks and continued with the Romans. And it, but it was, you'd write like a request that something bad happens to somebody or something like that on a piece of metal because metal was actually cheaper at those times than paper. Paper was very expensive for a long time. And drop it into like a sewer or a hole into the earth. The idea that these underworld deities would carry out the wish. But it's this, it's that first kind of thing of like that, or that primordial notion of like planting a seed or like putting something in the earth. And so if you look at a lot of like a who do curses and things like that, it's kind of like you take a piece of fruit and you do these things to it. And you make it this, basically you make it a cursed object and then you go to your enemy's house and you throw it in their yard. If your enemy doesn't know it's there, they can't get rid of the curse. So there's this like proximity thing to like, it's almost like drawing bad luck to it. You know, like it's got something about it that makes that happen. And sometimes there's like a place, like a cursed place, like anyone that tried to build here, something bad happened to them, you know? And people might, so like, so like these like kind of cursed places, you know? But is it like a disturbed energy of the place kind of thing? So some of these things still fall outside of it, but I don't think you ever get very far from like luck, justice and that kind of axis. I'm hung up on this, like the justice thing. I'm trying to find out if there's a, like a counter example to that. That's just like something just straight up unlucky. Well, actually, how about like, if you knock over salt and don't throw it over your shoulder, but that's not like you're cursed, right? Or is it, if you break a mirror as bad luck for seven years, is it a curse?
WDG: I don't know. The curse should have like, it has to have some kind of like intention to it, right? You know, there's gotta be like some motivation of like wanting to involve- Bringing harm onto something. Yeah, harm, and it's like, but in a weird like sort of supernatural, I guess way, you know, like the literal definition of it. Like it's not, it's not like, you know, it's like, the harm may be eventually natural, but it's like, but they'll be like, well, that guy, you know, they'll say like, he met an untimely end or something. Like, but you didn't do it directly. Like also that's the other thing. Like curses are like indirect. Cause it's not like, if you're like, oh, like I cursed this knife, you know, and like now I gave it to you and then like, you fell on the knife. It's like, well, I didn't stab you with the knife. I just thought the knife was cursed and you just happened to fall. Like later on when I wasn't around, you know, so you can't connect me to this knife.
Speaker 4: I think so.
Baba: I think we should, yeah, we should probably say there's a difference between an unlucky object and a cursed object. But, and that, and that difference is at least implied intention, implied intentional harm towards people that perpetuate an injustice.
WDG: Yeah.
Baba: Well, there we go. (Laughs)
Danny C: And I think that drastically reduces the amount of cursed objects that are actually out there.
Baba: Yeah. Yeah, well it does. It simplifies things, but it really opens the gates for unlucky slash haunted objects. And actually I think like, I think a lot of them wind up actually just being that trespassing kind of thing. Like I think a lot of them will wind up, like a lot of things that, where people feel like they get cursed. I think a lot of it is either, they think a person cursed them or that they trespassed upon something they weren't supposed to do. And now they're cursed, you know? But I think the implication there is that there is an entity behind it.
WDG: Yeah, like in the Pharaoh curse, like they purposely did not heed the warning of the curse, right? It's like, they were like, well, we don't care about this. Like we're gonna get this, do this anyway, right? Yeah, there's this hubris. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, like you said, like it's like, they're kind of like the justice, right? type of thing. Like it's supposed to be like a, you know, a way to warn you about your impending doom. Yeah.
Danny C: I wanna manufacture no trespassing signs that say trespassers will be cursed. You know, be like, shoplisters will be, shoplifters will be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. Something like that, but like, we're cursed.
WDG: Trespassers will be cursed.
Baba: I mean, to tell you the truth, I think I would keep a lot of people out. (Laughing) It's especially if you made something really creepy where you put the sign.
WDG: Or just something like, trust me, she's not gonna be prosecuted, but they will be cursed. Yeah, they're having like a nice, like a hex symbol on it or something.
Baba: You make something that looks like, like the remains of some animal, like on like a spear looking thing and hang the sign there. So people just think you're just not right, you know. And that would be more, that would be more convincing than if you put like, fake human remains or something like that. Cause people would be like, this can't be real. And you might wind up with like police, but if it's like, if it looks like a raccoon, yes, and the curse is on you then, if you wind up with police. But if it's a raccoon or a snake or something weird, I don't know. I wouldn't do that to an actual animal and I would be like, "Oh, I'm gonna be cursed by the people. You'll get cursed by the animal." You will, I believe that. The curse of the raccoon. We talked about the curse of gray face. Dan, do you know about the curse of gray face?
Danny C: I know even less about that than I do anything else which we've already talked about.
Baba: It is perhaps to most people the least scary curse because it's boring, it's boring. Discordianism, which is a topic of its own, but it's a parody religion and it includes this story about Eris who is behind or the goddess Discord. And she's like the patron deity of Discordianism. But the enemy in Discordianism is this guy, gray face. And gray face is the one that's convincing everybody that they need to take everything seriously. And is behind the aforementioned, no, actually he's not behind the triplicate forms. I think Eris is. But he's behind everything serious. So if you're familiar with the notion of the vogans in Hitchhiker's Guide, they're kind of like a similar, like very, very serious, very kind of like boring. Highly bureaucratic. Highly bureaucratic, yeah, like all that kind of stuff. That's gray face. So when you find that the matrix is getting you down, it's your being had by the curse of gray face. And the response to it is the turkey curse, which is one of the funniest sounding curses that you might encounter. And the turkey curse, I believe if I'm not mistaken on how you actually do it, you turn in the direction that you think the gray face-ness is coming from and you make a gobbling sound and like an over the top kind of gesture. I would recommend one that is reminiscent of a turkey. This is why you have to tune in for the YouTube thing. I just did a very impressive turkey impersonation. And gobble noise, gobble noise. And it will have the desired effect. Whatever serious thing was happening before then will at least be temporarily interrupted. You might need more than one of you to do it depending on how serious it is. But don't say that we never gave you anything. Gobble, gobble. What do you guys think? Is this stuff scary? Curses?
WDG: I mean, I guess probably. I mean, like in the sense of like, I don't know. I'm not usually in the position to steal treasure or swords or things. You have a tomb, you come across it, like let's say like that, it's got a ward on it, it's a warding and it's like, you know, there's like, it basically says something like, there's a shit ton of riches beyond here. You can have them all. But once you open this thing, you're gonna be cursed. And it doesn't matter what you do with the treasure, it's not going to remove the curse. So even if you're like, I'm gonna take this treasure and give it all to the poor, that doesn't matter. Like that's not, there's no caveats to what you need to do. Even if your intentions are altruistic, the seal still says you're gonna get cursed. It's like, so let's throw that on there too. You know, because there's like, because I know that that, because removing curses is a whole different story.
Baba: What about laundering curses? So here's the setup. I take somebody who's very greedy and very stupid. Imagine somebody like that, actually. I wonder if you can imagine somebody that's very greedy and very stupid. Maybe somebody that has like a character limit for how long they would read something. Like they might just start and be like, ah, screw it. I just want the, you know, and like they love shiny objects and things like that. I have a person like that and they'd go and get the treasure. And then I just wait for the curse to take effect and then gather it up.
Speaker 4: Has it been laundered?
WDG: I don't know. I don't think, because then, because if you take like something like the idea of the hope diamond, right? It's the curse isn't lifted until it's in an area where it's no longer like, but that's even up for debate, right? Cause we like, we were saying like the stuff that's been happening with the funding to our museums and things. It definitely could be part of, who knows? But like you can pass it along once you start, once the seal is broken, right? Like the curse is there and the curse is on the stuff, right? Like it's like, so trying to do, like, yeah. It's like the same thing. Like there's like, so someone else takes the curse stuff and tries to do something with it. It's like, wouldn't it pass it on to you? You know, it's like, they're just, now it's just out there causing harm. Like, you know, causing.
Baba: Yeah, I mean, I would say the likelihood of me going for that treasure is zero. But because specifically I'm weird about messing with the dead. I'm more, I'm more worried about them than the living when it comes to curses because I don't know why.
WDG: Yeah, I mean, well, at some point in time, probably all of the treasure was owned by somebody dead, you know, so. Yeah. But that's a. (Laughs)
Baba: I think that if it's straight up saying it's cursed, I just think the payoff isn't worth it. You could just go and just pretend to be, this would be for me. You might be a normal person already. You could go and pretend to be a normal person long enough to work a job and work your way up and get a respectable salary. And then like slack off, which is what most people do. And they get to that level and just pawn off their work on other people. Cause if you're willing to like rob tombs, you're probably also willing to just pawn off your work on other people. And then you could live pretty comfortably like that. That just seems like a lot less work than having to deal with a curse for the rest of your short life.
WDG: Just find ways of charging people high interest rates and like, you know, being a landlord.
Baba: Actually you can open up a website that sells curses that don't work. And just say it's for entertainment only and risk is on you.
WDG: Yes. But so they said the curse, the curse treasure vault, like whatever it doesn't have to, that should be a two, you know, whatever. It's like, is a, it's like, what do we give that kind of thing? And then the treasure inside is cursed. Like once you get it, that's it. It's just like, you know, you got to, and the curse is like misfortune, possibly death. Maybe a little of both, you know, I guess, like, cause it'd be usually that's what it is, right? So usually like either brings death then misfortune to those around you or it kills you like outright, you know, cause that's basically the, you know, the.
Baba: So then for me, the curse itself gets five monsters cause I treat it completely seriously. But the fact that the curse treasure exists gets zero monsters and me and those five monsters looking at somebody being like, told you so. Like, so I don't think it's scary when other people do it, but I wouldn't do it. I would take that very seriously. Five monsters not crossing that threshold. What do you guys think? Would you cross the threshold? Do you think it's all bunk?
WDG: I personally just like told, Well, we're just going to steal from the dead. I just don't think stealing from things. It's like, that says that, you know, like.
Baba: I mean, you're generally the no theft type, right?
WDG: Yeah, I don't usually like, yeah, I'm not really into like theft and greed that kind of stuff. And my own hubris, you know.
Baba: I guess mine's kind of like theft under certain circumstances.
WDG: Yeah, I just, I think like, I think if I was just face it, I was just in a general moral thing. I would probably just side on the like, this is not a thing I want to deal with. And yeah, I'm just, don't really, whether it's in the curse or not, I'm not sure, but it's like, but definitely it adds another level of like, if I'm just going to be purely instinctual about it, like what would be my gut reaction? I would say like, yeah, I'm not opening the cursed thing. And yeah, but I'm going to give it like, probably like three of the monsters, probably just because like, I don't know, just because I'm saying, wait for them, I'm sure someone else will take it. And then they'll be like, it was the curse after all. And then they'll, you know, do something horrible with the money that kills a bunch of people probably. But because that's usually how it works. So it was cursed after all, just not for them. It's, you know, so it's like, yeah, I think it's just like the greed thing is probably the more, you know, it's like probably more dangerous than the curse, you know, but so, but still, yeah, my gut reaction says, no, so I'm giving it three, I think it's, and I wouldn't probably come across it in the first place, but hopefully stay it away from all sorts of ancient tombs.
Baba: All right, Danny C, it's time for you to tell us. I'm gonna dance like this here.
Danny C: I am like full on chaotic neutral here. So I think I don't have enough, I will give it a rating, but I don't think I have enough information to really give a full on what I would do. So for instance, if I were terminally ill and I had basically nothing to lose, I would just do it, might as well, you know? I also kind of entertaining the idea of like getting people that I'm not too fond of and telling them about it and just like, hey, let's check it out, like let them do everything and they can keep it.
WDG: Well, what about, what if the curse though like doesn't kill you, but just kills like your, like people you like, you know, like, what if that, like, you know, cause you don't know how it's gonna operate. Cause it's like, so a lot of times when people have curses, it doesn't just missfall them. It's like the whole thing is that like curses their family or their lineage or their, you know, whatever, like their ancestors, like, you know, it usually has like some kind of broader implications and you're just gonna drop dead, you know?
Danny C: Well, does it though? I mean, if we talk about King Tots' tomb, for instance, did that
WDG: extend into the- I don't know that that extended, it was just those people that did open it, right? But I guess like the hope diamond, the passing it along, cursed everyone that had it, you know, kind of.
Baba: Yeah, and that was like, again, it's kind of like that, cursed by the gods, cursed by the spirits kind of thing.
Danny C: But I think there's a very small percentage, I'd be like, "I'm sure it'll be okay." And I would just do it myself, like go in and like get whatever. I could see any of those three scenarios kind of playing out just kind of depending on how important I am mentally.
Baba: Yeah. Yeah, I am curious about the laundering of curses, the laundering of cursed money and things like that. I guess we should probably put a fork in it, a cursed fork in it. (Static Buzzing)