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EP 4: Necronomicon & Cursed Books Explained

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Watch/Listen to this Episode Necronomicon & Cursed Books Explained License Info Necronomicon & Cursed Books Explained Transcription Necronomicon & Cursed Books Explained The words 'What is the Necronomicon'. Background is the image of an ancient text with a face - the book is clearly alive. Hosts Baba, Bill, Danny C, and monster logo in the corners. This is a video.

In Episode 4 of the Wondering Monsters Podcast, the hosts delve into the eerie world of cursed books, with a special focus on the infamous Necronomicon. This episode explores the lore, myth, and cultural fascination with grimoires, cursed tomes, and forbidden knowledge, making it a must-listen for horror enthusiasts, folklore fans, and curious minds alike.

What is the Necronomicon?

The Necronomicon is a fictional grimoire, most famously associated with the works of H.P. Lovecraft. First introduced in Lovecraft's Cthulhu Mythos, the Necronomicon has transcended literature to become a pop culture icon. Despite being a work of fiction, many believe in its mystical properties, and it has inspired countless adaptations, including movies, games, and even alleged real-life versions.

The hosts break down the origins of the Necronomicon, explaining how Lovecraft invented the book as a narrative tool. They highlight that Lovecraft attributed the authorship of the Necronomicon to the mad Arab Abdul Alhazred, adding to its mystique.

The History of Grimoires

The episode provides a fascinating overview of real-world grimoires—books of magic spells, spirit invocations, and esoteric knowledge. The hosts discuss how grimoires like the Key of Solomon, The Lesser Key of Solomon (Lemegeton), and Ars Goetia were historically used by occult practitioners to summon spirits and gain forbidden wisdom.

They clarify that while the Necronomicon is fictional, historical grimoires are very real and have been the subject of fear, fascination, and sometimes persecution throughout history. The podcast dives into how these books were used in ritual magic and how some have survived centuries of suppression and censorship.

The Simonomicon and Modern Mythology

An intriguing section of the episode covers the Simonomicon, a book published in the 1970s that claims to be a real Necronomicon. The hosts offer a critical view of the Simonomicon, discussing its controversial origins and its reception among both occultists and skeptics. They emphasize that the Simonomicon blends Sumerian mythology, Lovecraftian horror, and modern magical practices, creating a unique cultural phenomenon.

The Role of Cursed Books in Pop Culture

From horror films to video games, the episode explores how cursed books, especially the Necronomicon, have infiltrated modern pop culture. Movies like Evil Dead have popularized the trope of an ancient book unleashing supernatural forces, and the podcast discusses how these fictional narratives shape public perceptions of grimoires and occult practices.

Psychological Impact of Forbidden Knowledge

Episode 4 doesn't shy away from discussing the psychological allure of forbidden knowledge. The hosts talk about the human fascination with the unknown and the forbidden, and how cursed books serve as symbols of humanity's curiosity and fear of transgression.

They delve into the psychological concept of forbidden fruit and how it plays into the mythos of cursed books. This discussion adds depth to the episode, making it more than just a recounting of spooky stories—it’s also a commentary on human nature.

Conclusion: Why Cursed Books Fascinate Us

In wrapping up the episode, the hosts reflect on why cursed books continue to captivate the imagination. Whether through the fictional terrors of the Necronomicon or the historical mysteries of real-world grimoires, these books represent humanity's enduring obsession with the arcane.

Listeners of Episode 4 will walk away with a deeper understanding of the cultural significance of cursed books and how they've evolved from ancient texts to pop culture icons.

Listen to Wondering Monsters Podcast Episode 4

If you're fascinated by dark lore, supernatural horror, and esoteric mysteries, Episode 4 of the Wondering Monsters Podcast is a must-listen. Dive into the world of forbidden knowledge and explore the eerie allure of the Necronomicon and other cursed books.

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Transcription

*Transcription was automatically generated and may contain errors. 

(Upbeat Music)

Baba: We are talking about the Necronomicon and uh…

MM: And possibly other cursed books.

Baba: And possibly other cursed books. Or at least magic books. So the definitive thing about a grimoire, at least a solomonic grimoire, and most of what other people think of as grimoires I suppose, because they're modern grimoires, of which the Simonomicon, or the Necronomicon written by Simon, is one. We'll get to that. We'll get to that. But usually they contain spirit lists. They're books for summoning spirits. So probably, I mean, people are probably more familiar with the idea of the Necronomicon because of the evil dead. That's why I'm familiar with it. I'm actually going to ask, was that the book in the evil dead?

Danny C: Okay.

Baba: In evil dead, it's called the the Necronomicon ex mortis, is that right?

MM: Well, yeah, they changed the… I think it was like something else. In the first evil dead, it's like not knock-ridden something. It's not straight up Necronomicon, obviously. It's in fair from that. Then they kind of change that to… It's just like a weird cult book that the archaeologists found and left in this cabin that's abandoned. Yeah, yeah. And then in evil dead 2, which is also like, obviously, people don't know the evil dead series. Obviously not like a direct sequel, but more like just a remake of it with extended stuff. And that is the Necronomicon. It's like the book of the Necronomicon, just the book of the dead. You know, it's like, which I think is like, you know, but yeah, it's like, that's my intro into that stuff. Evil dead 2 being probably one of my top films. I love it. It's just like, it just combines all of the things that are weird. Yeah. And that's more about like… Is it like a dynamic night. Yeah. I think the accidental, you know, and I guess the weird thing is like the fear of like, you know, accidental evil, like you didn't do, you know, and having a really bad day, you know, just on top of it.

Baba: Which is actually the opposite of what most grimoires are. Most of them is actually, it's not, it's hard to summon a freaking demon. Like, like you don't just like flip through a book or God forbid, play a tape. Play a tape of someone reading the book, you know, and summon the evil dead or the…

MM: Well, yeah, it's supposedly one of the demons, the demon in the woods. Yeah. Like the woods, the demon or whatever that is. It's like, I guess it's the… Oh my God. Yeah.

Baba: Yeah. It's, I mean, it's… So the, yeah, so the Necronomicon. So the idea is you've got, so here's the love preps telling of it. It's like, there's this guy. Oh God, what's his name? It's, they call him the Mad Arab because he goes and he's studying this. He's like, he's not… Okay, I'm going to have to like straight up look it up because his name's a saint. He's not, he's not escaping me right now. He's not satisfied with the, it's the year 700 and he's not satisfied with the, the spiritual knowledge of the day. And he goes on this restless quest looking for the answers. And he goes from town to village. He wanders the deserts. He does all kinds of weird stuff. And, ah, yeah. Abdul al-Hazred. He's the Mad Arab. And he eventually winds up settling in Damascus and, and penning the Necronomicon. And it's this, it's all this stuff. Now, Lovecraft, like he loves to be, is pretty ambiguous about what the heck is actually in it. Um, it comes up in a story.

MM: It's like sort of a guffin in a weird sentence. So like, you know, it's like, I mean, it's just basically like it. Yeah. It's like in different things. It's referenced, like different various copies of it that are not

Baba: supposed to be like five copies on the planet. And there's another rumored one. Yeah.

MM: There's translations like John D translated one or something.

Baba: Yeah. Or attempted to with lots of errors. Yeah. Like there's all this stuff, John D of the Anokian. He was a real person. I think we talked about him when we talked about Bloody Mary. I don't know if we did, but we talked about Bloody Mary. But, um, but yeah, so yeah, who is a real person? He was from like the 1500s. Yeah.

MM: Elizabethan era.

Baba: I think. Yeah. My history isn't the strongest. I'll lean on you for that. But that being said, the yeah. So there's this idea he pens this book and so what's in it at least includes certain things for summoning the old gods, these old, the old ones who are like so super ancient and they probably came from space and their their behavior is correlated to cosmic bodies and they kill you and stuff. And so it's not like it's anybody's guess why you would want to actually summon these things, not to jump to where we'll inevitably take this. It's anybody's guess why you'd want to summon these particular things, but there are relationships. So of course it's not hard to guess why you'd be nicknamed the mad Arab for writing for writing down formulae for summoning these things and eventually being eaten by them. If I'm not mistaken, that's how he goes out. He's eaten by them. He kind of he he semi worships them, but I guess it's kind of like a, oh no, like a do yourself in cult kind of thing. You know, when we're shipping the old ones. So not recommended, but it's related to. Okay, so real world. There's the idea of the gin and the gin. It's a, and I will be a little out of my wheelhouse, but the gin is a spirit in Arab lore that they are. They're the spirits that were not cool with people and people's relationship with Allah. They were not cool with it, or at least in later, you know, in later town with with Allah. And and so you wind up with this, these pissed off spirits that get banished to the desert, basically. And so you might happen upon them in the desert. They have power, but they don't like you. They do not like you. They probably wish bad things for you. So again, why would you want to work with this kind of thing? Because they have power. And if you have the kind of magic that can make them do what you want, you know, then. And so there's real world magic around this stuff, which is I'm not going near the gin. My version of those, though, would be probably the goatia or things like it. And so the goatia is the part of the. The Megaton, the the Megatron, the Megatron, there's a tie in here, the Megaton, which is the five. It's a five. It's a grimoire that includes spirit lists, spirit catalogs. And there are the spirits of the goatia is the lesser key of Solomon. This this thing, they're the spirits of the goatia that were very familiar with a lot of them. And they show up in things like Buffy the Vampire Slayer and things like that. They get borrowed in lots of anime and they they just show up. These are like, you know, spirits like like now watch me call when it's done. The official list as a thought, you know, or Astaroth, whichever form, you know. So I mean, grimoires throughout have these spirit lists. And but that's not a bad one to start with if you're interested in messing with these kinds of things. Messing with these things being weird magical practices, not to refer to messing with the spirits of those goatia is messing with these things.

Danny C: I wouldn't. Yeah. So let me let me interject for a second. So my understanding of the nepercom, the net, whoo, no, mica that my understanding of that is it's a fictional book that was part of HP Lovecraft's literary units, we'll say. And it sounds like there are other grimoires which are also spirit summoning texts. Right. I'm getting that. OK, so there are other books. OK, so there are other non-fictional grimoires that really exist that allegedly do what the network, the Necronavicon could do in the books of HP Lovecraft.

Baba: Kind of. Yeah. In fact, the claims in some of the grimoires are like insane, you know, like invisibility, the power to fly the part, I mean, like really like acts of the apostles type stuff.

MM: You know, you mean you're shaking people down for money and then killing them or taking into.

Baba: It's power to break into prison. Yeah. Yeah, no, all these things. Yeah. You didn't you didn't give us your money. Boom. Yeah.

MM: God now kills you. Yeah, that sounds right. Sure. That's that's the official story.

Baba: And the thing is, when it comes to the grimoires a lot of times, so you're talking about Christian Europe by the time a lot of these things are being written, although they most certainly have their roots way before that there. We don't have books from. Five thousand years ago about how to summon things. We have books from the year of 1100 or something like that. That's like that's probably pieced together older stuff that's like put together in a very like hodgepodge kind of way. And then it gets mixed with a lot of Christian stuff because. Well, because it kind of had to be and also because grimoires were largely preserved by the monasteries because they were also coming through these things for tech to use because they're in the they're in the business of dealing with spirits. You know, it's like finding a manual for like how to build really kick ass ships. And it's like, yeah, technically it's a rival nation, but like the ships were were kick ass. Like I'm not throwing this out. I'll go look through this. I've got to get the best tech. I'll go see how it works. And then I'm going to put it in my own notebook. And that's kind of you have these books that show up that look like they're basically the working books. Of people doing this stuff, particularly when you get into like the cunning folk in like in I'm just going to say the UK, I'm not getting into when what was called what. I'm just going to say the UK.

MM: I'm going to say like, let's just get wrapped up. This is like a point I think like something like we're missing and forget back to like the Necrodome or what you were saying about these things. Let's just talk more about the idea of like the aside from the demonic element of it, but like the cursed book element, right? Because that's part of what is kind of about this thing. It's like because I guess like Lovecraft sort of pulls this off of that, like with like the king in yellow is like the inspiration sort of for the Necrodome, which is like a series of short stories about this play that when you read it, like you die or whatever, you know, like it's like the curse, you know, like there's this, you know, it's like it keeps cropping up in different things or when the play is played, like something horrible befalls you. And that's similar to like if you use an Necronomicon, right? It's like you end up going mad or encountering demons or things like that. But there's also like this element where like you were saying, even in this when people are pulling these old books, you know, like they're in like more like Renaissance era, but they're pulling medieval manuscripts and they're reading through them. Some people were dying, but it's also because like things were like lead painted things.

Baba: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Like name of the rose type.

MM: Yeah, exactly. Like, yeah. But I mean, but that was happening. There are these things. I mean, a modern example of that will say modern in relative terms is like Marie Curie's her notebooks have to be kept behind lead because they're so radioactive. You can't interact. So it's like, you know, because obviously she was studying, you know, by radio, but like, you know, it's like so there's like, yeah, so there's like so there is this element of like certain books can like of these things can have things that will hold and they have mold spores. And you get sick and you die. It's like, yeah, but there's it's it is kind of a weird like thing. But there's but I think something interesting about the the like, not just like the lovecraft stuff and all this thing is like there's this really like idea of like, if you think about books also as being this kind of like, you know, technology, right? There's also this fear of that, like, this stuff can make like there is a point where something can like be so like corrupting in your mind that it like literally causes you to like, lose touch with reality, like, like, you know, like a book or something like where you can make you go insane or turn you into something else like a you know, like it could, you know, is that not a cooperative number of society. Yeah, that's usually what kind of befalls people who interact with that. These types of things or, you know, stuff. It's like, they don't usually end up in a good way. They usually end up dead or murderer in jail or in an institution or like things like that. You know, it's like, it's never a good.

Baba: Yeah, yeah. Well, and I think it's like, I mean, these things because they tend to be horror stories like that, you know, but like, but yeah, I mean, it's.

MM: But it's already known, right? It's like, it's like the unknown can make you like, you know, these evil demons that exist outside of space and don't die.

Baba: Yeah.

MM: And it's like, it's so scary.

Baba: Yeah, it's like, it goes back to that. Okay, no, this is. I don't know how far off course. Maybe it's not that off course. Hellraiser, the freaking no, no, it's not. Right. Yeah, yeah. Okay. So they exist in this liminal space outside of normal time. They're kind of Lovecraftian. Yeah. And they're like, they're like, they don't have a morality. They just have this weird agenda that no one understands. They're, they're frightening. They come out of nowhere and you can accidentally summon them by figuring out the puzzle. Yeah.

MM: Another weird McGuffin kind of device.

Baba: Yeah. So it's kind of like the idea of reading, reading names in a book or playing a tape of someone reading names in a book and it summons things up. Okay. Well, that's very different than the real experience of Western grimoire magic, which is largely like being in a room for like several hours with lots of incense, like peering across a room, chanting names of God, all kinds of weird things from all kinds of different cultures pieced together in a way to try to like make something show up. You know, I mean, it's hard work. Oftentimes like the medieval processes involved multiple people and getting caught doing this stuff probably would get you killed. Like I have enough books on the shelf over here to get me killed like so many times over, you know, any one of them could have led to a horrible death just having it, you know. And it's like, because yeah, these things were considered really dangerous. And also, as you said, sir, good, sir, very powerful tech. And it's kind of like the idea, I'm sorry, I'm using like a very like cliche expression, but like, you know, electricity can cook a man's dinner, or it can cook a man. You know, that kind of an idea of like, it can do you in the so called double edged sword, you know, it's, and I think it's the the faucet and think it's the thing that's around all of magic. But the idea, one of the dangerous things about magic when it comes to the lore of the magic book, the magic book that just reading the damn thing will give you power is that I mean, what an appropriate time to be talking about this with people that are scared of books. But the magic book, it's the role playing game that's gonna turn you into a demon summoning occultist. It's the like, what's the object, you know, and with what ease, you know, is it the puzzle box? Is it the just being curious about the stuff just talking about the stuff the Ouija board? What's the thing? That's the evil haunted thing?

MM: Well, there is like a weird like, curiosity slash like, academic, like, it's almost like, in a weird sense, it always feels like it's like, sort of like, anti intellectualism, like, you know, or something like that. Like, it's like, because if you know too much, that's it, everything goes wrong, and you lose it. And like, I mean, it's like, think of tech, it's almost like kind of like modern stuff with like freaking Gutenberg. Yeah, like, yeah, just there's always like this stuff with like, like, butter stuff, like, kind of like, like the AI stuff. It's like, well, AI is probably going to make a lot of people lose their jobs. But the thing that people tend to glom onto is like, well, what if it just wipes out humanity? It's like, well, we have lots of things that could do that pretty easily. Humans are pretty capable of wiping out humanity without it.

Baba: It's always in progress. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Danny C: Killing each other for generations and generations.

MM: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Inventing newer and newer tech that, you know, can destroy us all. But that's the thing like people more glom onto is like the almost like the, like the demonic version of it, where it's like, if, oh, no, we might hit this tipping point, and then AI will just destroy us all. And it's like, well, we've already hit the tipping point of us destroying us all. So we can't really, like, you know, it's like, I think like, we don't like, maybe we should worry about more of the, you know, actual impacts of it in like a, you know, economic way, but it is kind of has that the computers summoning demons, essentially, you know, that are going that we don't understand fully how they work and what they want. And they're going to tell us.

Baba: I mean, there's even a thing. I teach people either love irony or have no sense of irony. But like, there's a thing there's a what's the demon? They see happen you isn't the demon is a thing in in the world of of of they

MM: play a lot of video games and read a lot of sci fi, I think, is the one of the things of the early versions of the inner.

Danny C: I've only seen it in writing. I've never actually heard it in dialogue. So I don't know if the correct pronunciation is Damon or demon, because if my memory is correct, it's spelled D A D A E M O N. And I haven't I haven't touched those in many, many years, but I believe it's all about like, like, like scheduled tasks, basically, or scheduled scheduling things that happen automatically. Yeah.

Baba: Now, talk about things that are pretty old stuff and weird spellings of demon. It wasn't weird for them. I would be weird. Um, then the word diamond, the Greek word diamond shows up in as one would suspect in the Greek magical papyri, also called the PGM. And that's an old group of stuff. It was a workbook of probably a working Egyptian priest that was making money on the side doing magic stuff, which was actually seemingly kind of common at the time. And he had all kinds of cool stuff in there. And a lot of it is not. I mean, some of it sounds scary, like the headless, right? Sounds scary, but it's a kick ass exorcism. Right. And these are the kinds of things that would be in grimoires, which is why they were proliferated and reproduced by the monastery world. But the,

MM: um, yeah, I should go to, I was gonna say, I went to a museum exhibit on Egyptian, like, I guess, like, we'll say like practical or house magic. And it was all like different things, like objects used for different, like things like secure stuff or to, you know, stop you from being, you know, like bad things happening to your house and all this like weird, you know, stuff that was like the lower end of not the like, oh, the ritualistic, you know, kind of stuff, but like that, like, just like that. And that this is kind of a fairly common thing. So I guess someone had to be selling them this stuff. You know, someone had to be pedaling. Exactly.

Baba: And it was very, very practice, very welcome in Egyptian society of the time. I wish I knew exactly which time I was talking about in this particular instance. But, but at any rate, probably like late kingdom, you know,

MM: I think it's like, I,

Baba: that sounds highly believable. And yeah, I think right around Thebes is where we're talking about geographically. So but, but there you've got the diamond showing up and it's, you've got like the Agathos diamond, which is the good, great, good spirit. And it's, it seems to be, there are lots of these things that are like summoning God as like kind of like the only God, but they're clearly different gods, but they're in the same collections. So it's just kind of like, at some points, you say this is the creator God who made all things and, and gave the the spirits of the zodiac their shape and all this stuff. Yeah. And it's all this weird, these things just like stitched in there, but it's like lots of old stuff. And so when you get to, so I want to circle back to this idea of the cursed book, Mr. Miki, as you as you brought up, the, there is a book that just is being published. And it's the first time it's like being widely available in any kind of translated published form. And I can't think of the name of it, but Stephen Skinner, so today's date, so people can look this up and figure it out yourself, you don't have to do some work. If you're not, if you can't do this work, don't go, don't try summoning spirits. May 8th, 2025. Stephen Skinner just released a book. It's a grimoire. And it's parts. It's like the first two parts of a five part thing. It's cursed. Everybody that tries to publish this thing. I mean, like, if I'm not mistaken, he's had connexion. And he's had a lot of fun. And I'm like, what's this thing? I mean, like, if I'm not mistaken, he's had containers containing the book go missing, or he's worried that they might go missing when he's being interviewed. It's, it sounds great. I can't wait to get my hands on a copy. It's I think it's still in pre-order right now. But it's if it's not out yet, it's just about to come out. And, and I'm not going to look it up for you. You have to look it up yourself. You have to do some of this work. Because if not, you're never going to survive the hours of incense.

Danny C: Make it a little easy. We'll throw a link down in the description. So people can easily find that one.

Baba: Yes, we will. We'll research it. Ex post facto. And, and post it up. Which, you know, I seem like a person that needs more caffeine, don't I? I'm gonna, I'm gonna stop talking for just a moment. And when I come back, I want to talk about is the Necronomicon fake or fictional? Because we have to talk about the Simonon a little. Abdul Al-Hazared. This is the plot line, right? Al-Hazared writes the Necronomicon gets eaten by monsters, or whatever you want to call them. He writes the Necronomicon bites the dust later on. Lovecraft reveals the secret of the Necronomicon in his stories. I believe it first appears in the Hound. I don't know if I've actually ever. So, but that is according to popular telling it shows up first in the Hound and in a couple of those other stories. It is a MacGuffin. It's kind of this weird thing that ties his little world together and just makes you curious about what the heck is in this thing. Now Lovecraft was fine with people playing with his ideas. He is a bunch of his friends, why not creating certain versions of the Necronomicon or, or I don't know if they call it that, but there's this idea of this kind of book that's out there that contains these names that you can use to summon things up. And it's got banishing rituals and summoning rituals and stuff about the old ones and stuff like that. And so then you've got it proliferates a little bit in in history in pop culture in the 80s. Well, so, Bill, when is when's Evil Dead? Is that 80?

MM: The first one is 80, is it 83, I think. So that sounds right.

Baba: So you so it's interesting. So you've got so 1970. So a couple decades,

MM: Evil Dead 81. Yeah. So, yeah, so

Baba: we're piecing this timeline together like detectives. So you got 1970, you have the arrival of the Necronomicon published by an author that calls themselves Simon. And it contains rituals and things like that for summoning things and doing magic and contains different seals and things like that. And it purports to be the real Necronomicon. And years later, the author came out with a thing called dead names that claims the origin story of this document, the Simon, but he didn't call it the Simon, I've got other people call it that. It's the Simon Necronomicon. So you've got this shows up in 1970. Right. So you've got 1980 1980s. You've got the emergence of Lovecraft property role playing games. Okay. So people took the Lovecraft ideas. They made role playing games from them. And those are for one second.

Danny C: I don't know if you mentioned this, when did HP Lovecraft actually write the books? Was that because I'm assuming that's before all this. I think he's 1930.

Baba: That's good enough. Okay. Yeah. Some somewhere in that range. And he was another one of these weird New Englanders. Horror writers. But yeah, so. So 1970, Simon on the con writes this, this, the things out there, 1980s, you got the the role playing games, my words are getting stuck here. They don't want you to know about this stuff, the role playing games. And then you've got also the popularity of this among at that point, the 80s chaos magicians. So these are ritual magicians doing weird stuff. And I can't get to get to into chaos magic right now. But the idea is kind of like, belief is what matters. Some people in this time believe one God is as good as another. And you can actually just exchange fictional gods for real ones. It doesn't matter. But be like, it's like, psycho drama to get in this magic space.

MM: Yeah, it's like, yeah, think punk rock, but also kind of also coincides with stuff like, you know, like the Illuminati trilogy and the whole.

Baba: Yeah, Robert Anton Wilson. Wilson. Yeah, like a lot of like postmodern magicians. Sorry to use. Yeah, yeah.

MM: Which is like very, yeah, like kind of goofy and silly, you know, in a weird sense, are using sources that are kind of, you know, like, more against the grain, I guess. Yeah.

Baba: And the idea that all this stuff doesn't have to be so serious, and you can still get results by messing around in non-serious environments, which is probably what allows people to bother even summoning up any of these things. So, so, yeah, so 1980s, though, you have people playing around more with this. Now, I mean, the thing was public, the Simon Amecombe was published in 1970. I wish I actually had a graph with the escalation of like, when the sales took off and stuff. But at this point, you have people like playing around with this, and it's getting more popular through the role playing games and chaos magicians messing with it and stuff. So, but then so, so chaos magicians are one thing, because like, they're a little more flexible when it comes to belief and, and, and Pantheon and things, obviously, you know, not necessarily contemporary ones, but like, but, you know, at least in this period, and especially in like the 90s. And so, but you've got other folks that aren't so like that. So you've got one character, one curious character, that's rather into the mythos of the Necronomicon and, and, and, and Lovecraft stuff is Donald Tyson, who, he's one of the he's more in the in the world of like, golden dawn style hermetic magic. And so it's very traditional. It's like very orders.

MM: Yeah, but maybe it just

Baba: means so many things, though.

MM: Well, yeah, yeah. But I mean, but I mean, for just for some, yes, it's like, yeah, like, you have to get it. You have to be a part of it.

Baba: It's kind of part of the quarters and you're, you're, you get, you get like, historically, you're probably white, you know, you expensive books. Yeah, like, it's nothing. So, why am I talking about these? But so Donald Tyson, I mean, now it's like, you can, you could just buy these books for like 20 bucks, you know, order them online. But the Donald Tyson, though, is of, and sorry, Donald, if I'm, if I'm actually accidentally slandering you here. But he's of the belief that so in the golden dawn tradition, the golden dawn system was given to the adepts and founders of the golden dawn, the hermetic order of the golden dawn by the four secret chiefs. And the four secret chiefs were something like the disembodied masters that maybe they're dead, maybe they're passed on or ascended or something like that. And they're giving all these magic rituals across the void. And I think it's like, some people think, well, no, the four secret chiefs are just like this device made up to give people legitimacy, like some people might say about people doing, Oh, I'm a channeled entity by this name. And therefore, that's why you should believe.

MM: So where does that tie us back into the side? So, so the idea, yeah, I'm getting there.

Baba: It has to be circular. It's about the Necronomicon. So the four secret chiefs give this thing and you're not supposed to mess with the format of the golden dawn stuff. But Donald Tyson, true believer, did with the Necronomicon stuff, at least according to his statement, like find a bunch of map overs for the Necronomicon stuff, on the golden dawn stuff. And, and with Tarot, like there's like a Necronomicon Tarot out there and things like that. So he's kind of like, he's got this kind of I believe he's got a Necronomicon spellbook. I could be wrong on that. That might be somebody else altogether. But so, so even among more order based magicians, this kind of thing is kind of still looked at with a curious eye. Now, Simon, who wrote the Simon Omicon and dead names in dead names claims that he was involved with this group that is this group of American bishops. That is the American Orthodox, Catholic Church or something like that. And that he in before the publication of the Simon Omicon is part of this group. And they are shadily involved in the assassination of Bobby Kennedy, or they all go dressed in this garb to Bobby Kennedy's funeral. And there's all this like other conspiracy stuff that's woven in with this weird church that does it is a very, does it is only bishops, according to pretty sure that comes from the the dead names are only bishops and they're doing this. No Cardinals. Yeah, like, you know, just these no bonds and UFOs and all this kind of stuff. But, but so you've got this weird church that one of these members has this old manuscript in his apartment. And Simon takes it and publishes it. And that's where the Simon Omicon comes from. It's this ancient book. But there are people that weigh in on different sides. I mean, I'm obviously talking about it like you can kind of guess like, no, I don't think the Simon Omicon is the real Necronomicon. I don't think there is a real Necronomicon. But there are lots of books out there that have very similar kinds of vibes.

MM: Well, can we talk about that? I was gonna say like real good that like the I mean, there's sort of like a hoaxy nature, seeming very much to that, like, right to the whole Simon Omicon, because it's like, it's like, it's isn't it like, compiled from like, literally, like literature, like sources that are just like stories from things, some of it's like, other stuff ripped off. Other people's writings, some of it's like, you know, it's just like, it's like, literally, you can track it back to like, like, isn't that kind of the, I guess, like, that's the thing is like the Necronomicon has also been, as it's continued as popular even before that, it's like a part of like, people would do pranks, like, put it in card catalogs in library. So universities, it's a very pranksy kind of book as well, like, for a long time before

Baba: the before the Simon Omicon was published. People were always there, they were doing that kind of thing.

MM: Yeah, like, like, like, maybe like, or like, yeah, like things like that.

Baba: So it's one of these like, legendary, the Vatican.

MM: Yeah, like, oh, the Vatican has it or something like that. Or, you know, like, it's like, it has this very, like, I think, yeah, pranks, you know, like,

Baba: so I think that Simon Omicon leans heavily on all this pre existing stuff, you know, and I don't know much about like, whether there's, I guess, what we'd call like, ripped off IP or not, you know, so much as, you know, like, it's just like heavily, heavily leans on this previous stuff, because it's pretending to be it is pretending to be the Necronomicon, you know, at this point, I mean, I don't know if Lovecraft was public domain yet or not. Maybe that's why it showed up in 1970. You know, or maybe it's because it was available from this weird church that had been carrying it around between assassination related funeral visits or whatever. I don't know, like, very, very odd. But you know, like, something lands about this, right? Something lands about it, because it's this idea of, it's caught on, like, so many people have liked this idea of this magic book that you can use to summon these things, you know, that that yeah, I think it's, but it's funny, because so after you've got the 1970s, then you've got the role playing games, and then it's straight into the world of like, Evil Dead, like right around the same time, you know, and this sort of proliferation of interest in this kind of thing.

MM: Yeah, I mean, the rise of like, I mean, you know, that there isn't like, but like, people who grow up on weird sci fi and supernatural horror, you know, novels and things like that, and then dollar making movies, it's like, you know, it makes, you know, kind of makes sense. Like, you know, yeah, I mean, you know, because I mean, like, I think, like, you know, like, nothing, there isn't horror movies, clearly, you know, weird old Vincent Price thing, you know, clearly, like Nosferatu is one of the first movies, it's horror movies, you know, like this kind of, but I think like, cinematic horror really hits its stride in the, you know, with like, you know, like, the Halloween.

Baba: Well, talking about cursed objects, cursed movies, cursed albums and stuff like that, or like weird kind of the black, the heavy metal album that gives you the secret magic,

MM: dialing it back. Yeah, yeah. Well, that's again, that all stuff, like, same thing kind of links into the same time period. This all seems to be around the like moral panic, like, you know, play a record backwards, it's giving you evil messages, like, you know, play Dungeons and Dragons, and you're gonna like, be, you know, it's like, you know, there's like this whole like, it does seem like people are, you know, easily, you know, like these, again, these things that can make you insane or make you mad, you know, and like, just, and then cause the downfall of society.

Baba: Remember, remember movies like The Gate? Did you ever see The Gate?

MM: I don't think I've ever seen The Gate.

Baba: Yeah, it was one of these things, and teenagers accidentally open a gate to this world that lets all these demon things out, trying to fight demons in their house. And then there's a gate to that actually has something that looks a little bit like sigil magic in the beginning of it. So it's kind of funny, again, like the way these things just pour back and forth into each other.

MM: So let's just say, well, since we're, you know, if, if it's a thing is like, if something is like, you know, if the negative advocate, in fact, we're real, then why aren't we being overrun by elder God?

Baba: Maybe we, maybe we are, but maybe they're just smaller

MM: and smaller. The more like they want

Baba: to soak up different kind of attention. Oh, man. No, no reptilian stuff. No, not now. Never.

MM: No. Yeah. Yeah. They're not elder gods. They're very spacious.

Baba: Well, there are people that have this idea. I can't outright dismiss it that we gain technologies through demonic interactions. And that actually, if you look at what's going on with the agendas of the world and the escalations of technology and things like that, I'm not even talking like Illuminati stuff, I'm just saying, like, when you have these, a technological boom changes the shape of culture and society. And it consequently, some people think of it as the Faustian bargain, which is similar to the, you know, what the dude that wrote the, the Al has read, you know, he kind of had something of a Faustian bargain. It does you in, in the end, you know, it never works out kind of thing. And so the idea is like, well, you get agriculture, but now you're stuck here. You know, you have to develop civilization around that agriculture and you can't just up and leave when you over grace the fields, you know, this kind of idea where it's like, do you get facial recognition technology to keep your phone secure, but you're tracked everywhere to give extremes from the agricultural revolution to some of the latest in technologies, you know, you get one of these things, these phone things for those that are listening is these government surveillance devices and you get the government surveillance that comes along with it. No, but you now you need one to park your car. And don't let me say about how the car has reshaped culture and wasn't a Faustian bargain. So where are these demons? Where are these demons that are, are, are actually running the world and whispering in the ears of these politicians?

MM: Or is it just the and that leads into that whole thing, the manifestation of just like, again, just like the fear of tech and culture moving past you, you know, or the fear of how tech, you know, it's like, oh, like the books are changing the world, but they're evil. You know, it's like, it's like, like, it's like, it's like, you know, it's like, this is, you know, this is something that's like, you know, we're doing that's altering, but it's probably something like, you know, it's like, it does feel like it's just more like the technological idea that feeds into moral panics or something like that.

Baba: Yeah, psychological underpinning

MM: to this type, bring it back to the idea of something like these, you know, that sort of like the thing making you mad. Well, I guess like, you know, means shared madness is a thing, you know, that it's like, you know, I guess we could say that like, you know, maybe technology as like, you know, these, I guess, sort of like a allegory, like, you know, that, that does make you insane.

Baba: And to some degree, that's just, well, it depends what you mean by insane, right? Well, I was just like, because, okay, so check it out. I'm the weird neighbor reading one of these weird books. You're not that person, you know, so to the rest of the village, I'm seeing things that you're not. To me, that's exactly what I'm trying to do. To you. That is batshit crazy.

MM: But the backlash against it like, will be like the world panic is like, trying to put going back to like, somebody said, or at least trying to put the technological genie back in the bottle.

Baba: It raises an interesting question. And one that we're not going to be able to answer is the idea of how much magic has been in our history. And how much of this stuff is like, like, as other technologies become more prominent, some of these other things fall by the wayside. But like, the beginnings of what we call go Asia were necromancy. And that is the like, probably the earliest ancestor worship, ancestor veneration is probably the earliest of religious of spiritual practices, honoring the fallen and asking them for help. In a world that's very much in touch with his dreams, because they're not watching TV. And like, these are the only weird stories they get, you know, besides just being in the world. So it's kind of like, yeah, you you could just construct the idea of a ghost world and people still being alive somewhere. And I'm like stepping outside of the outside of the spirit infested world that I could I clearly live in. But you know, just to say, yeah, there are definite explanations for like, where this came from. At what point did it become weird to talk to the ancestors? That's the question I have. Because if you know, at what point was it not okay anymore to ask them for help? You know what I mean? And at that point, the particularly when it comes to the point of the rise of Christianity, the common era, you know, at that point, you've got a piece of technology that comes around paper that is being really used well in the monasteries to reproduce these things to gather these things. So it's like, it's when this stuff starts to be falling out of favor, because like, because maybe authorities don't want people to be able to go right to the spirits, right? As falling out of favor, just at a time that tech that technology has emerged to be able to prove it. And by the time you get the Gutenberg, you know, well, it's not too much later after that, that you've got, but I mean, the the mass availability of memoirs for many people, you know, it's historically speaking, it's a blip. So it's, you can definitely, if you step into the magic camp, you can definitely see how there could be an agenda being worked with the spirits and the people, you know. But if you step into the psychology camp, you can also see how it actually could make sense from so jumping from context to context, I think you're, I think you can, they're satisfying answers in each context, depending which one works for you, and which one works for you. And I think that's a perfect time to weigh in on what we think about these things. Okay, I'm gonna start since I'm already flapping on. I don't think the Necronomicon is a real thing. I don't like, it's a real thing, obviously, it's become a real thing, because people have written them and started working with them. And I believe that some of those people might have had some really weird experiences based on that. And I think the only way to tell is to tell people and I think the only way to tell is to give it a whirl yourself and to do so with earnest effort. So this is the part that gets me burned at the stake and time when that seems like it's becoming fashionable again. Go out there and give it a whirl people. I would not start with the Simonomicon. I'd start with, what would I start with? You know, I might start with like the PGM, the Greek magical papyri, practicing magicians out there are going to be like, you're a moron, why are you doing this? Why are you recommending that? That's not the place to start with the PGM. And then get, get Skinner's book, the techniques of Greco-Egyptian magic. There, that'll be enough to get you involved. That's a good start. And or just get the Simonomicon and give it a whirl. But I don't think the Necronomicon is real. Beyond that, I don't think there's a historical text. There are clearly lots of these things out there. I think, I think it points at a, at a spirit world that is real, though. And, and I think you can interact with it without putting putting too heavy a thumb on the scale. I'm going to say, give it a whirl if this sounds interesting to you. And it is interesting to me, and I, I do give it a whirl. So next, somebody take the mic. I actually got turned mine off. Okay, thanks.

Danny C: All right. So recognition, I think that many people, you know, have heard of the Necronomicon. I cannot say man, jeez Louise. Necronomicon.

MM: Just read it in, Dan. Just like, Necronomicon.

Danny C: I think many people have heard of it, later, like myself included, not necessarily knowing all the ins and outs of what really is, it's allegedly real, is at all fictional. I think a lot of people probably like, what is it? Okay. So I'd fall into that camp. So I think Necronomicon, I think it's generally recognized. So I'd say that scary, I think because it's largely recognized as a fictional work, I don't think people think it's all that scary. Grimar is in general, I guess they could be scary. Grimar is the existence, the idea of them are real. It is Grimar. Sorry, am I saying that right? Okay. Those do exist, whether they really work or not, I am unsure, but I will say, I will take my usual stance that I believe this world is very strange. And we obviously don't know everything there is to know about it. So is it possible that these things they work in the way they're described to work? I think that is definitely possible. However, I've never done it with, I've never, I've never done it myself. So I cannot say for certainty. Do I want to encounter it? I don't know. To me, it's kind of like the idea of the Ouija board or something Bloody Mary. Like it's just kind of like, I don't know what the outcome is going to be. I don't know that I would go into those waters. The whole thing with the gin is very reepy. I've read and heard many stories about that. And it just does not sound like a good time at all. So I'm hesitant to do anything with Grimar's or anything like that. I'll give it say, I'll give it like a maybe like three and a half monsters. I think I do that a lot. I'm going to go three and a half monsters.

MM: Yeah. So, yeah. So I mean, obviously, yeah, I agree with you, Dan, with like the recognition factor. It's like, you know, I mean, it's I might have a little more skewed basis as obviously being like, you know, sci-fi kind of fan, you know, it's like it's going to it's going to pop in there. But I mean, but there's been so many like, you know, even like breakout things and stuff, you know, like included in like modern board games and things like that. Obviously, there's the entire like Arkham Horror series. And, you know, in Japan, like the most popular role playing game is a call of Cthulhu, you know, so I mean, like, so there are these things, you know, so obviously, like, it falls into that just overall brand of stuff that for probably the better eclipses Lovecraft's works, which can be problematic at times. But I think people have morphed it just like even even using something like the Simon into something beyond that scope. But yeah, but overall, again, my thing is like, it's a, you know, it's it's a like, it's a MacGuffin. It's, you know, it's there's lots of different variants of that. The idea of the curse book, I like is kind of, you know, obviously, like a thing that could happen in a weird sense of like, you know, people feel like they said earlier monks dying or like radioactive notebooks, like, you know, really making you sick, like things like, you know, that does seem weird. But I think the like, ultimately, like the scary factor is probably like the, I think for me is probably like the kind of like, what makes it kind of creepy is like, chunching these things in curse madness, like, well, this is like, like, it's all like, it's a one way ticket to losing your mind, you know, like, it's like, because they matter, like, because if you have an encounter with this kind of idea, that's like, so that's like, and yeah, maybe it is more of like, kind of a technology allegory type thing, you know, where it's like, as we progress, like, there's no going back, like, there's nothing, you know, it's like, this is a this is, this is just the way it is now. And you have to adapt and like, in that way might be like, sort of like, it might be seen early as like, from an early adoption as madness, but then becomes a thing. And then people are afraid of it once it reaches like peak adoption or something. But yeah, but it's a, but if you're, if we're saying something like, I don't think these, this is real, like, I'm not, you know, thinking, I think it's, you know, whatever you make of it, like, but it's like, but if we were to say that, like, the actual Necronomicon was real, and how it worked, I don't think I'd want to go insane. So I don't think I'd want to encounter it. I don't think, I mean, or go more insane, I guess I should maybe qualify that statement. But yeah, but so I mean, like, so my rating is gonna be a little weird. I'm like, even though like, the like, this touches into a lot of like, like, I guess, like, media and things that I that I tend to really like, I'm just I'm gonna kind of give it like a one on the factor of monsters, because I just think, yeah, it just it's like, you know, it's just it just has that more, you know, just it's like, it's just so vague. It's so like, adaptable. It's just that, you know, it's just it's like, it's just a MacGuffin. It's, you know, it's the Lost Ark. It's the thing, you know, it's just it doesn't, you know, it's just something to drive the plot forward. And it's a, you know, it doesn't, it doesn't have the, you know, like, I guess, like, like, extreme psychological terror that something like a boogeyman would have, you know, so I'm gonna have one one monster. Yeah,

Baba: it occurs to me that I did not give a monster rating. Yeah. So my, my chatting. So my monster rating, since this has been a very circular topic, I think it's kind of appropriate that I end and begin it. My monster rating, I would say three monsters and a headless monster appropriately, because I'm gonna say, don't start with the PTM or the Greek magical techniques. Jason Miller's consorting with spirits before you do any more any more explorations of grimoires and Alan Chapman's basic magic for beginners. That's that's that's that's where to start. That is your Necronomicon insurance policy.

Danny C: Dude, that's that was the part where you should have been actually holding a microphone. I'm right after you said that just like drop exit or just stand up.

Baba: It's like had a CGI.

MM: Do you have problems with the Necronomicon? Why? Because I can sell you a Necronomicon insurance policy.

Baba: I could sell you a Necronomicon insurance policy. Don't get Necronomiconed.