EP 5: Are Zombies Real

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In this thrilling episode of the Wondering Monsters Podcast, we dive headfirst into the enduring cultural obsession with zombies. From ancient mythology to modern media, zombies have become an integral part of our collective imagination.

The episode opens with a personal anecdote from Danny C: When we were doing the Necronomicon, that book reminded me of Evil Dead. And I love zombies. I have this borderline unhealthy obsession with them. This sets the tone for a discussion that balances historical insight, pop culture critique, and dark humor.

One of the core themes is how zombies evolved from Haitian folklore into the cinematic monsters we know today. Originally rooted in the concept of people being brought back to life through voodoo, the modern zombie has transformed dramatically. We trace this journey through key moments in film history, including the cult classic The Evil Dead and Night of the Living Dead.

As discussed on the Wondering Monsters Podcast, Zombies are such a large part of our culture, going back to even the Greeks. This historical reference includes burial practices that hint at ancient fears of the undead returning from the grave. Even ancient Greeks sometimes pinned corpses down with stones to prevent them from rising.

The conversation then turns to modern TV and film portrayals. Danny C has a love-hate relationship with The Walking Dead, citing its strong start but noting how character fatigue set in. I just wanted all the people to die, but then they'd be replaced with another equally annoying person. Despite this critique, it's clear that the show's contribution to zombie pop culture is undeniable.

Another key point explored is why zombies resonate with modern audiences. It's not just about gore or scares—it's the symbolism. Zombies reflect societal fears, from pandemics and loss of autonomy to consumerism and the breakdown of civilization. Zombies represent our fear of losing control, of becoming part of a mindless horde.

This episode of the Wondering Monsters Podcast also touches on the science—or pseudoscience—behind zombies. From real-life parasites that control animal behavior to fictional viruses like Solanum in World War Z, the boundary between myth and reality is explored in a fun and engaging way.

Of course, no conversation about zombies would be complete without a discussion of survival. We share our ideal zombie apocalypse strategies, offering both laughs and practical tips. We explore the advantages of different weapons and the disadvantages, especially depending on the physical space that you occupy when the zombies attack.

Why This Episode Matters

This deep dive into zombie lore is more than just a horror fan's dream—it's a look at how stories evolve, reflect societal anxieties, and offer catharsis through fear. The mix of scholarly curiosity and passionate fandom creates a compelling listening experience for both horror veterans and newcomers.

By blending personal stories, historical facts, and media analysis, the Wondering Monsters Podcast episode on zombies stands out as both informative and entertaining. Whether you're a horror buff, a folklore enthusiast, or just curious about why we love zombies so much, this episode delivers.

Also Mentioned in the Show

• Is Bloody Mary Real?
• What is the Necronomicon?

Watch & Listen to the Full Episode

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Licensing Information

• Title: Entry of the Gladiators
• Composer: Julius Fučík
• Library of Congress (Public Domain)
• Podcast theme song version edited/arranged/mixed by Dan Swift

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vampire slayer, church graveyard, conflict of interest, ghoul, ghouls, lich casting, lich, movie, mummy, mystical vampire (portrait/rich), necronomicon with candles, possessed, pyramid, sarcophagus, skeleton getting ready to attach, t-rex skeleton, vampire ready to attack, virus zombie, werewolf, person and mirror, zombie dog and horse, zombie hands, zombies in the mall, zombies in the street, zombies walking the streets

Transcription

*Transcription was automatically generated and may contain errors. 

(Upbeat Music)

Danny C: When we were doing the Necronomicon, that book, and I think I mentioned this in the episode, reminds me of Evil Dead. And I love zombies. I have this borderline unhealthy obsessions with zombies, zombie movies, you know, The Walking Dead. I was all about that TV show, which I had a very strong love-hate relationship with it. I just wanted all the people to die, you know? Like people would just, I'd get them, I'd find them to be so annoying, and then they would finally die. And then like they'd be replaced with another equally annoying person.

Baba: But all this-- You mean they didn't just become an annoying zombie? They didn't, no, they hang around as an annoying zombie.

Danny C: Tapping them on the shoulder, you know? They turn around, ah! But it's interesting, you know, zombies, such a large part of our culture, going back to like even the Greeks, I was reading on the history website, history.com, you know, that they would sometimes bury people and like put rocks on top of them, seemingly to keep them from getting reanimated and coming back to life and, you know, kind of coming, rejoining society. And then obviously there's everything with, you know, Haitian culture and voodoo and just crazy, crazy stuff. But I absolutely love, love zombies. I feel like there's so much stuff there. And it's interesting that so many other people find such a weird thing so fascinating. The idea of, you know, these dead things coming back to life. It's always humans, unless you're playing like Resident Evil, I feel like, you know, but it's always humans that come back. You never really see zombie dogs or zombie horses or anything like that.

Baba: It's very like pet cemetery at that point. Yeah. Yeah. Which actually winds up with both varieties, really. All right, so yeah. Yeah, yeah, like I mean-- I'll nail myself down. I'll find myself to this point, like I'm a buried dead with rocks on top of me.

Danny C: I'm a buried dead with vampires, you know, staking them through the heart, but like staking them down, not just like, you know, in the heart while they're standing or something like that, but actually like down into something to kind of like pin them as well. And that's kind of interesting. Think about like what I was just talking about with the Greeks, the idea of keeping the, you know, putting the rocks or whatever on them to keep them down, but the idea of the staking the vampires too. Yeah, yeah. Interesting stuff. We seem to have this fear of, you know, the reanimated dead in general. Very interesting, very interesting.

MM: It also seems like it's interesting that it like culturally like shifts depending on like certain like cultural climates and things like that. Like obviously like there's like the magic zombie, right? Like something like a person who has magic did something to like turn someone into like a thrall, you know, like, or kind of thing, you know, it's like, or even in like the case of any other, but versus like the vampire undead, the zombie doesn't seem to have, like it doesn't have the capacity. It's like a shadow of a person versus the vampire is like supposedly like depending on the mythology, like they're still like in control. They might even be like aggressive in different ways that are manipulative or things like that. And zombies can't really do that. But also like you were saying, Dan, like I think of like, you know, weirdly enough, probably like, even though I knew about zombies and stuff, the earliest two things I can think of getting involved in are probably things like stuff like indiges and dragons or something like that, which is like, you know, you have zombies, but you also have like skeletons, which are weird because skeletons also like the kind of undead, they're sort of like zombies, but they're just reanimated bones, right? You know, it's like, but it's like, they don't seem to have the same, I guess, personality, like they don't seem like a person. And a lot of times like, you know, those are controlled by like an evil, like some type of major, like, bitch person, like, you know, that has that kind of like.

Baba: It's like, there's that, that greater category of like, one dead and then like.

MM: And then zombies are like a low tier kind of thing. Yeah, I was gonna say, I think of like also like the, in media versions of it, like, I think before I actually saw any zombie like movies proper, I remember like the Simpsons treehouse of horror episode about zombies, you know, and it's all the parody of the different kind of zombie film. So, you know, it's like, like that, like he, but that also is magical. Like he raises, he goes to the occult section of the library and he raises the dead. Like he wants to raise up the, Lisa's pet cat who died, you know, I think it was snowball two or something. And he ends up raising zombies instead.

Baba: Back to that pet cemetery.

MM: Yeah, it's back to cemetery. Which I've never, I've never seen any of the variants of the pet cemeteries. Yeah, you,

Baba: that's not for you. Yeah, I don't think that's.

Danny C: You would not, you would not dig that. That reminded me of, you know, Scooby Doo. I think that was my first real, actually no, it would be the music video for Thriller was my first exposure to zombies, but animated would be Scooby Doo. And even then it was probably just like old man Withers or something like that.

MM: Yeah, and I don't remember, like it's weird. I've like, even though like Thriller, I remember hearing like on, you know, like things, I never saw that video till later. Like I know it's like long and stuff like that. Like it's like one of those things where like, it skipped my like, you know, like things. That's funny. It's like, well, because I didn't, you know, we didn't really watch that kind of, you know, music video stuff, you know, wasn't really around in my house. You know, so I never really, yeah. But actually in that same Simpsons episode, he's wearing, instead of a magic hat, he's wearing a copy of Michael Jackson's Thriller, like Bart puts it on his head. It's on, I said. (Laughing) But yeah, but also I think of like, and that variant of like magical, you know, zombies to like, then like, I guess like the, just like shambling, why did they happen? But also think of like, what is it like you're saying Resident Evil, specifically I think Resident Evil 2, like remember Dan, I remember you and I like playing that a lot. And essentially like, I think of like, and that's all like about like a new, it's like that, the virus zombie or like the 28 days later, like it's not magic, it's something tech that went wrong, like, you know, because it's like that whole like, what happens when, you know, like, you know, and maybe hitting too close to the like, like mass likes, lots of people getting sick, you know, kind of a variant.

Danny C: So that's just interesting. So I was thinking when you were talking about, about skeletons, for instance, and it's basically, you know, reanimating the bones. And I was thinking, you know, there are,

MM: I

Baba: just happen to have a little zombie clown.

Danny C: They're the worst kind.

Baba: Sorry, back to skeletons, back to, forget about this clowning.

Danny C: Stop clowning around. So there are, in my head I'm thinking, you have like two kinds of zombies. You have like the slow moving stupid ones, you know, that they grow.

MM: You're shambling.

Danny C: Yeah, and then you have like the super powerful ones. They might move fast or, you know, they're, you know, not quite to that level of, you know, slow and whatever. And I was almost wondering, you know, it seems like the, when it's portrayed in movies, the virus ones, they seem to be the ones that are like stealthy or strong as opposed to like the stereotypical like voodoo Haitian where it's like the fumbling around. Interesting idea. Like it seems like you have this, you know, divide between like these super powerful ones and not so much, but either way at the bottom, when you look at it, the zombies are kind of like at the bottom of the reanimated hierarchy. You know, you have like, even skeletons. I feel like when you see skeletons in TV shows or whatever, it seems like they are, they are stronger. They are, they can move fine. They wield swords. Yeah, yeah.

Baba: But you don't get that with zombies. Seven Voyage of Sinbad style.

MM: Yeah, yeah. That's obviously, yeah, that very hard hasn't, the type of thing.

Baba: You know, it's, but zombies replicate. So what's horrifying about zombies? Well, lots of stuff's horrifying about zombies, but a zombie bites a person, they become a zombie, but a skeleton bites a person, they don't become a skeleton. You know, like they die or they, ah crap, how did I get bitten by a skeleton? You know, like, well, I don't know what happens, you know, but I guess actually, I guess also like, I'm getting assured by a skeleton or something, but like, really, Skeletons are always like magical,

MM: right? They're always like a mystical thing. Like never like a viral component, you know, because there's has to be something like magic holding the skeleton together, right? You know, and making it do it. So it's gotta be like some kind of, you know, magic user behind the scenes.

Baba: What's the difference between like say, okay, so here's the thing with zombies, zombies like which? Zombie, like there are so many ways of defining it in the ways that it's become because like, all right, so think about like the demoniac, the possessed person flailing about and kicking, spitting and knocking shit over and attacking people and stuff. Like, okay, like that's like kind of like some of the freakier zombie type things, except the demoniac doesn't seem to have as much of a focus of killing people and stuff. You know, they're kind of just freaking out and spouting stuff, right? So, but when it comes to a zombie, okay, like you almost have to like say, well, there are these categories of zombie because you have the, I didn't see, what was the, what was the zombie movie with, I think Brad Pitt might've been in it. Oh, World War Z. Yeah, I didn't see any of that, but those guys look fast as hell.

MM: It's another virus type thing.

Baba: Yeah, right, and they were like kind of like, like they modeled their movement after like ants and the way they just crawl over each other and it was like, nope, nope. But there's some frightening things to wind it back, like what's frightening about a zombie is something that's frightening about vampires too, is that both as a person that becomes a zombie and for a person whose friend or whatever has become a zombie or a vampire, okay, is that something, this is not my original idea, I heard some commentator on this, but it was something, the idea of like, something can bite you and you become something that can't control itself, and you can't control yourself anymore, and you might go and slaughter your loved ones, or the loved one that just got bitten might come after you and now you have to do in what, is it them, isn't it them, it kind of looks like them, now we're back in uncanny valley territory and the notion of like a corpse or an android or is it still a person, can you do it in? And that's part of the thing, it's like a werewolf is frightening in its own right and it might do you in and forget about whether you become a werewolf if it bites you or not, I guess it depends who's telling this story, but forget about that, forget about that, werewolf is a monster that's gonna kill you, but it doesn't look like a person, so like the struggle is not can I do it in, it's not can I do it in morally, it's like am I gonna win, how do I do it? Zombie's a different thing, it looks like your friend, and that has to wind back a little, and we have to kind of like put the jack in the box for a second and say, where do we get this idea in the west of the zombie? And Dan, you mentioned the idea of the Haitian zombie, which from a cultural phenomenon, the way we understand it to be anyway, would be kind of a slow moving entity, because at least the version of this that we're familiar with is this, the westernized version of where did the zombie come from, it's well in Haitian society, certain criminals would be punished by society by being zombified, and that would be, and this is contested, but this is the puffer fish toxin, the Tradotto toxin or something like that.

Danny C: I think it's tetrodotoxin, let's go with that. Let's go with that.

Baba: It puts you in this death-like state, and then in a culture that isn't doing embalming and things like that, you're buried alive then, and then you're dug up, you're kind of dead, socially speaking you're dead, you've been recognized as being no longer part of society, and now you're dug up, and you get variations, all this is contested. Given an antidote or a version of hallucinogen, and then you're mind-controlled into living in servitude to a bokor or sorcerer, so that's the idea. And now that's contested, there are a lot of ethnobotanists that say, nope, the zombie powders do not have that toxin. And so-- Or

MM: even if it works exactly that way, yeah.

Baba: And like how many does it work successfully on, how many people are just killed in the process, how many successes do you need in order for the story to spread? Okay, but that's the idea, right? So there's this, and then there's this, and then there's the jump across to the living dead, the walking dead, or the actual reanimated corpse, which is really what we've done to it in America. It's usually--

MM: So our popularity starts with the George Romero movies, so Night of the Living Dead being that early version of that very-- Yeah. Well, as a look at that, George Romero didn't even call it in the spec, it wasn't until Dawn of the Dead, they started calling them zombies. He actually called them ghouls. When I pulled up, there was a thing where he said something like he based it on I Am Legend. And from what I remember from I Am Legend, the book, it's like, they're kind of like, basically, there was like a nuclear whatever catastrophe like thing, and they're like, you know, basically, the people that didn't die turn into these shambling kind of almost like vampire creatures, right? Yeah, yeah. It's like, obviously, there was a more recent, but there was a version of I Am Legend, like a movie, but there was also the, what's the one with the Vincent Price, Last Man on Earth, or whatever, but they're more like ghouls, and it's like, I wonder if there's an element, especially in our version, where it's like this xenophobia of it, but it's not just xenophobia, fear of like, say like foreigners, but literally fear of other people. Like it's like when other people become like the mass, you know, thing that's coming to get you, whether they're some kind of ghouls or some kind of thing, you know, and it's just like, and you're just, it's kind of like very strange kind of, yeah. Yeah, oh, wow. You know, it's a, yeah.

Baba: It really does jump those things. Okay, so the ghoul, it's a flesh eating corpse. Yeah. It's a cannibal corpse. Right. That then forms a metal band. (Laughing)

Baba: It's a flesh eating corpse. So that is, yeah, that makes sense.

Danny C: I think it was in Ezekiel, in the book of Ezekiel, in the, you know, the Christian Bible, talked about zombies in some capacity, and I can't remember exactly what it was. Something about like, move without like move, yeah, had no breath or something like that. It's like a very short, a very short quip, I guess. And then similarly, you can think of, you know, the story of Lazarus. Could quite possibly be our first known zombie. Yeah, yeah, and

Baba: then maybe a couple after that, maybe. Yeah, very, very strange. And yet, yeah, I mean, it's, okay, so like, if you go back again to the idea of the dead and our relationship to the dead, it's going back again. We were talking about the Necronomicon and Necromancy in general, calling things up in mirrors. We've got this old kind of--

MM: There's also, is the element of fear of, and maybe this was a thing that was more common, but the idea of like, the fear of being buried alive, it's also a weird thing as well. Like somebody might not be dead, like that they might still be alive. Like that whole like, putting bells on graves, this is like the idea that someone could ring a bell, inside the coffin and say, like, I'm still alive. So creepy. There was still a lot, you know, or like the, obviously that's the whole like vampire thing. But I mean, like, but that's also just like, what about like the whole-- Oh, it's so creepy. What about, also like, we could actually like, the notion of like, obviously, this probably isn't anything that's actually related to actual Egyptian culture, the mummy, you know. Yeah. Because the mummy's kind of a shambling zombie, because it's like, they're not the afterlife person. It's really like, it's like something that went wrong or something, you know, or like they're out there to curse people for disturbing their afterlife. Like it like comes back, like it's like kind of like, almost like they're like a personification of the like, the dead pharaoh's, you know, spirit, or like, or it's like almost like a version that's like a protector to protect their tomb, you know, from raiders, you know.

Baba: And that's like its own little thing, because like, I wonder how much of that comes from the, just the idea of the cursed tomb, you know, and like the revenge from the dead, you know, like how much of it was like, from anything from that culture, and how much of it was like, weird things that like, because if you think about like, archaeologists said things, they were just like rich hobbyists. Like they weren't, they just went and did this stuff because it was like an entitled culture with money and free time.

MM: Yeah, that could run around the world, you know, digging up people's secrets.

Baba: Yeah, I was just gonna dig up their graves for my own curiosity, you know.

MM: To be honest, it's like before, you know, like Western, before like, more like further, I guess, like empirical Europeans or wealthy Americans or whatever, sort of like robber barons started doing those kinds of things. The Greeks themselves did that when they took over Egypt, you know, like the tourism to this.

Baba: Yeah, I guess it's a time honored tradition.

MM: Tourism to the sites like, you know, or like, you know, there's like, you know, predated, you know, the Roman Empire. It's like, so it's, you know, things like that.

Baba: Where was fear of the dead when you needed it? Yeah, yeah.

MM: Yeah, but there was like, if I'm not mistaken, there is something like, and maybe that's a difference. Maybe curses is a different topic, but you know, because it's like, the whole like the mummies curse sometimes didn't embody just like a mummy rising up, but like some malevolent thing that happened to you because, you know, you did this, you know. Yeah. I know this is also a top, another topic. Well, curse treasure, and that goes into the gremmars.

Baba: Back to good old Necronomicon again, but let's go back to zombies.

MM: Yeah, yeah, sometimes I say that let's jump into more like the weird modern, before we get into like the virus ones or anything like that, going back to like the Romero, like the shambling, biting zombie, right? Something I find interesting too is like, that even when the zombies are very slow, you think like, they just like, it's like an overwhelming in numbers. Like after a certain point, you can't escape because there's just too many of them, right? Like they don't even have to be fast. It's just becomes like, it just like, you just, you run out of ammo or you run out of supplies or you're just stuck somewhere and you can't get out. And now like, you're kind of there, like you're like you're trapped inside a mall, like the zombies eventually get in or somebody messes something up and the zombies eventually get in, but there's always like a very slow, overwhelming thing that where like it closes in on you.

Baba: There's this inevitability.

MM: You're taking with that guy.

Danny C: That's all I had, yeah. So the interesting thing with that, it's like an invariably, this is how, and I'm sure it's all like for, you know, a cinematic effect, but you know, you'll have a particular movie, TV show, whatever, and they'll be outside or it doesn't matter where they are. And you know, they're looking all around and the place is seemingly deserted. There is nothing there. And then all of a sudden out of nowhere, it's like 3 million zombies. Yeah. But it's interesting, it's not like, a lot of times it isn't like, you know, you have like the one, the two, the three, you know, but it's like all of a sudden it's like, it goes from like zero to a million in like a, not exaggerating obviously, but in a fraction of a second. It's very rarely that it's, you know, you see, you are walking and like it gradually increases, just all of a sudden it's like, boom, they're all there. And there's usually all quiet too, you don't hear them.

Baba: You know why, right? It's because Cannibal Corpse was playing, they just finished a set and they all came out for a snack break.

MM: "One of my favorite movies like, ""Shaun of the Dead"", this" "is a play on the ""Dawn of the Dead"", like in the mall type" of idea, but like in the very beginning where everyone's kind of doing their things anyway, and it's all like routine and patterned. And then when the zombie outbreak happens, hell, Shaun, he goes back out to his normal routine and he doesn't even notice because it's just like, everything's kind of the same, like the people are kind of engaging in the same behavior. So aside from like a fear of the other, you're getting into like this fear of just like social like stagnation, capitalism, or you know, that kind of like that level of just like, everything's the same, it's just like this.

Baba: So this plays back in and I can start to see a little more how these things are connected. "All right, so ""I am Legend"", right?" "Neither ""The Living Dead"", inspired by ""I am Legend""." "All right, ""The Inevitability of the Encroaching Invasion""." Body snatchers, all right? Yeah, yeah. The body snatchers.

MM: He's like some friend scared type thing. They live.

Baba: Yeah. Dark City. There's just like this weird, also this isolation. Danny C was just talking about the, there's nowhere, there's nothing. It's empty, you're alone. And then all of a sudden, you know, if you think about, I mean, that's very much the feeling like Dark City. It's like you're alone in this empty world. And then here they are. These creepy uncanny valley-esque kind of things, you know, are suddenly there. And is there any escape? "I mean, ""The Matrix"", you know, in a similar way." It's like there's this, you are so outnumbered. You are so outnumbered. Can you win? And I think that's the thing that really factors into the zombie story as it's what it's become in a way that it hasn't happened with the vampire story. Like you don't really have like a lot of vampire, I don't know if there is a vampire story where it's like, you're the last one standing and everybody's become vampires, you know? I think because vampires have to keep a certain equilibrium.

MM: Maybe 30 days of night, that kind of.

Baba: Because they have to continue to feed on things that have blood, you know? Yeah, 30 days of night is, yeah, that's probably like the.

MM: That kind of like, or maybe like somewhere in like the blade two, like the Garamold Del Toro blade where the weird super vampires that are more, like again, they're kind of more like mindless, like, you know, like it's like crazy, you know, they can even kill. But also, but I think what it is is in current context, something like the difference from vampires, even going back to Dracula to some degree, there's something like cool about vampire. Again, they have agency and like. Oh yeah, they've been around for a while. They have all the lines. It's like a mystical, cool, they often are rich or they're powerful. And what's something that.

Baba: They've done so many things. What's something that.

MM: And it's not to say what's something that people who are rich and powerful, they don't want other rich and powerful, like you know, so you're not gonna want a ton of vampires everywhere doing things. Plus, as a vampire, and like depending on which of the, like the kind of movie or mythos types of things you're getting into, like then you're cutting off, like if everyone's, there's no more, you can't eat people because there's no more, you know. It's like, you need, you can't have, everyone can't be vampires against, where zombies don't have a choice, they just do, they're just an actionable thing, like they're just like a force, you know. It's like similar to a disease, you know. And that's probably where the whole disease thing comes into, like in Resident Evil series, it's like the T-virus and it mutates and changes and different things happen as the series goes along. But it's like that whole idea of like, but it's a corporation and things go out of control and then we know zombies, right? You know, it's like, it's.

Danny C: Let's stick with this for a second. So imagine this scenario, okay? And I can't help but think of like, you know, recent history with COVID and everything like that. So imagine a scenario where, you know, you have everyone ultimately becomes a zombie, everyone gets bitten, you know, whatever. There's nothing left for the zombies to eat, okay? So maybe they can eat other zombies, maybe they cannot, you know, maybe they lack the nutrients they need or whatever. Like deer or something. But do you think, well, even, let's say all living things are gone. They're all zombified. Do you think that perhaps the virus would then mutate so that it doesn't need living things anymore? Would they almost suddenly become vegetarians? Would they, you know, develop photosynthesis or they just need the sun? What happens at the end when every thing, every living thing becomes a zombie? I don't think that's ever been addressed anywhere in pop culture of any kind.

MM: Yeah, I'm not sure. I would imagine like there's something of like, well, that kind of belays the underlying, the thing that makes it scary is being, like you said, like the whole like isolated, you know, like alone, but amongst like this thing, like you're, you know, the inevitability of your own demand. You know, it's like literally the walls closing in around you. Cause once everyone's, no one's here to care about being, you know, it's like, they're probably just at all like, if it's a virus, I would imagine it just like ends, you know, it's just one of those, you know, or mutates to something less aggressive.

Danny C: It's so interesting too, going back to, you know, talking about skeleton, animated skeletons and vampires and zombies. It's interesting. It reminds me of any, any video game or any role-playing game where you have like the creatures are all well balanced. You know, there aren't any really super creatures out there. You know, the vampire is very charismatic, you know, and can shape shift and can fly, but can only come out at night, you know, and you know, crosses will keep it away and holy water and garlic and all these things. Zombies are slow moving, you know, but if they get you, it's like, it could be the end pretty much. Cause I do seem like they're pretty strong still, you know, based on what I've seen. Movies and whatnot. And skeletons, similarly, it's like, you know, they're, they're animated, but you know, they, you can still fight them off. It's like fighting anything else. You don't have to worry about it necessarily, biting you or scratching you and getting disease. It's, you know, as long as you can hold your own, you're going to be okay. If you can get into another room and close the door, you know, it seems like, and barricade, it seems like you're probably going to be okay. Whereas zombies are breaking windows or like breaking through walls. So it's interesting that it seems like you have this well balanced across these different animated undeads. Really, really cool. None of them are super, super powerful. They're just, they're powerful in their own ways. They're their own weaknesses.

MM: Yeah. Maybe, maybe a lich would be like the high powered thing cause they get to be both undead and magic and control.

Danny C: At its core, lich is like an undead magician, essentially.

MM: Yeah. Like a, like an arch, I guess like an archmage type thing, you know, so at least in the fantasy role-playing game idea, right?

Baba: So if you're going to be an undead, I would go for lich. Yeah. Even, even over vampire.

MM: Even over sexy vampires.

Baba: Magic.

MM: Well, vampires have some magic depending. Like depending on the thing. Not as much as a lich. Yeah, that's true. But liches don't look very good.

Baba: With magic, it doesn't matter.

MM: Also liches are kind of like, they're just, aren't they like kind of warped by like, you know, like whatever they did, demonic packs or something like that.

Baba: So probably, but you're probably pretty warped as a vampire.

MM: Yeah. All these are better than zombies. So maybe, yeah, like, and also maybe that's the other thing. It's like, you don't want to become a zombie. That's the whole thing. It's like, maybe you already are now. Back to the dawn of the dead again. Yeah, yeah.

Danny C: So why do you think zombies are so prevalent in our modern culture, you know, all like, like the walking dead. I'd like to use that as an example, you know, it had like, I don't know, like 10 seasons, 11 seasons, something like that.

MM: I think like a multiple spinoffs that are still going on.

Danny C: Yeah, but you don't get that same level of commitment for other, you know, monsters we will say, you know, in the 90s we had, you know, Buffy, you know, Buffy the Vampire Slayer. That was a big thing.

MM: Yeah, vampires hold their own pretty good. There's always something coming out. Like we just had a remake of Nosferatu, you know, that came out. We just had that movie. Yeah, that looked pretty wild. The movie Sinners is about vampires. That just came out, that was pretty good. And then you always have like the Twilight, like all that, like they got to hold their own still too, like in the same, like, I feel like it's like probably out of the two undeads. Those are the new things. Skeletons aren't getting lots of love. Unfortunate.

Baba: Nor are witches. Like the screaming skull, but then it wound up not really being a screaming skull. Yeah, there's a little-- I mean, I guess it kind of was, but it was kind of that guy.

MM: Yeah, it's like, you know, I feel like sometimes skeletons get thrown in for comedic effect, you know, or something like that. Yeah.

Baba: Yeah, I mean, like skeletons haven't really been around so much since, The Seventh Point is just in there. Yeah, there's-- It's like sword and sorcery movies.

MM: Yeah, yeah.

Baba: I don't know if they, maybe if there have been, I haven't seen that, the Dungeons and Dragons movie they made the other year. I don't know if a skeleton showed up in it or not.

MM: No, not that I remember.

Baba: Yeah, and also-- Evil Dead, Army of Darkness rather.

MM: Army of Darkness, yeah. Yeah, but again, the weird, that's sort of a sword and sorcery movie.

Baba: And it's back to zombies again. Yeah. So, and magic books, all this stuff is connected. (Laughing) Should we talk about, I mean, I guess it goes without saying, we probably wouldn't want to encounter these things. Should we do our monster measure vote?

MM: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'll start it off.

Baba: Come here.

Danny C: So, recognition, I feel like everyone knows zombies. You know, there's no-- Back to the ancient Greeks. Yeah, if you've heard of ancient Greece, you're familiar with the idea of zombies. I think they can be kind of scary. I feel like, depending if you're dealing with a 28 days later zombie, or like, you know, a slow moving, grunting zombie, I feel like it might have a different level of scariness. But I feel like, generally speaking, I think they're okay scary. Maybe like, I'm gonna be like, two zombies. Two monsters and like a torso, I guess. Are they real, I mean, seemingly from Haitian culture? It seems like something like that may have existed at some point. Not to the extent that we really think about them today. So I'm gonna go with maybe like a monster, maybe throw in a torso there as well. Would I want to encounter it? No, but if I did encounter a zombie, I think I could hold my own. And that's saying a lot, I think.

MM: That's the pitfall though of every zombie movie. Like, you see, you have that hubris of, I can probably survive the zombie in the apocalypse. And it never happens.

Danny C: Trying to remember that Seinfeld quote with the peaches. It's like, that was Humphrey's downfall or something like that. So that's my take, who wants to go next?

MM: I think obviously, yeah, recognition. I agree with you Dan. Like, zombies have especially an arm, though like current society, we have lots of iterations. It's generally always in media. Maybe not quite as popular right now as it was say like five, 10 years ago when it was like really, really popular. It's always in video games, it's always in something. It's always in something. There's like, so I think, yeah, that's a pretty good thing. Yeah, scary, yeah, I think zombies are like, like they're scary because of like the implications of them. It's like, they're just like, it's just like this kind of, I, yeah, and yeah, so I think just that whole like the crazy mob closing in on you to get you is frightening and just frightening too. Like you don't want to become a zombie, like that's scary as well. Like, you don't want to, like, I don't know that you would know after that happens, but it's just like, you know, it's like my fear, just for generally fear of being killed by like, and yeah, so, and as far as encountering, yeah, obviously, I don't want to zombie encounter. I don't think anyone would want to be, but yeah, I think it's, as far as being as real, like I agree with you. Yeah, there might be like some variant cultural things where whether it's accidentally, people being accidentally buried alive, that might happen like two times and then it's spun out or it's rooted in other, you know, cultural like religious practices and things like that, but yeah, but not the, but as far as like the mass Romero, like shambling hordes, I don't think that's, yeah, I wouldn't say that's a thing, nor I don't think it's something that we should have, but the, but I would say, yeah, I mean, I'd give zombie like, you know, like good, like three out of five, cause it's, you know, just cause the implications are the world is over already. You're right. Once the zombies, how it's happened. And that's pretty frightening cause you're already in survivalist apocalypse and yeah, I'm not the survivalist type, so I don't really want to. I like, I like, I like generally the society's modern and the convenience, I don't know, I'm more of the way for this whole thing to blow over. (Laughs) So yeah, so yeah, three out of five monsters for me. I'll weigh in on this now.

Baba: I was having problems finding my little checklist here. I was like, all right, here we go. So, so recognition, I think we, in agreement with everybody, like the, the idea of the, the walking dead, the animated dead is very well, very well spread and well feared. And yeah, so recognition wise, they're every, it's all over the place and in like, at least in the States, I mean, like you'll see all over the place things like zombie apocalypse vehicle, you know, like the notion of like the zombie apocalypse or training for the zombie apocalypse. It's enough of thing that like everybody kind of has a sense of the zombie apocalypse. And I think in fact, the zombie is like LinkedIn with apocalypse, you know, in many people's heads, you know. So recognition, yeah, I think that's an obvious one. Is it real? So there is the Haitian phenomenon that was probably real, who knows what it was because everybody, there's been a lot of speculation over time of what is, what is the culprit behind it all, you know, whether it's this toxin or whether it's something else, you know, we didn't really get into the idea of do the dead ever come back? Do the dead ever come back? And if they did, is it still a zombie? Which I'm gonna jump over into the, I guess like how scary is it? Is that our next thing? Yeah. I'm gonna say like pretty, I realize I haven't been given these monster ratings, I'll just give it.

MM: Well, you know, just give one at the end, I think. Yeah, I messed that up in the

Danny C: beginning, I forgot what we said.

Baba: You've got extra monsters for a film, monsters for everybody. All right, so scary wise, yeah, every version is scary. The scariest for me, probably if it's not like the, the Haitian cultural one of just being like trapped in a body but not able to do anything about it, like I think I'd just rather get eaten alive by cannibal corpses, you know, but like, but the idea of the evil dead type zombie to me is scarier than all of them because they're both like the scary, frightening, dead thing. And there's that mental torture thing going on too, cause they're like, they're kind of ghosts. So they're, but they're, so they're a different guy. Now I don't think they're referred to as the evil dead. They're not referred to as zombies, but in this big net of zombies, are they zombies? If so, I'd say they're the most frightening of all. And do I want to encounter them? No, no version of any zombie. Do I want to encounter them? That may be funny because, you know, on the fence maybe about Bloody Mary and like all these, the other creepy, demony things, but the bogeyman, you know, but no, under no circumstances do I want to encounter any version of the zombie. Unless it's like, I don't know, just like a fake zombie, like someone in a zombie costume. Like when people go on like zombie crawls, like pub crawls, some of them I wouldn't mind encountering if they're cool, but no, I think I'll just say no. Total monster frightening rate. What's it was a one to five? Monster. Yeah. Maybe like a, if it's an evil dead zombie for end of monster head, they're pretty scary. (Laughing) They're pretty scary. Cause they got it.

Danny C: So one thing we didn't mention, I definitely want to ask this, and I want to encourage anyone that is listening or watching this to also add a comment answering the same question. So think about all of a sudden the world goes to crap and there are zombies out there. Okay, you're in your house, not necessarily your house, but like an average house. What is the best weapon, the best thing you can use as a weapon in fighting off zombies and that you can get from an average house? So no like flamethrowers. Samurai swords. No samurai swords. But for a general, an average house, what is the best thing you can use to defend yourself against a zombie? Who wants to go first?

MM: Well, I mean, it's like, so average house, probably something from like the tool shed obviously, right? And you want something that has a little reach. I'm thinking like, you know, the really good snow shovel might be a good, you know, or just a shovel, you know, would be a good, like a just your standard spade, you know, it's almost like you kind of can get a little spear action going on, but you also got a nice broad flat pink, you know, to knock them in the head. You know, it's a.

Baba: I'm kind of thinking, I'm going to go beavis and butt head style. And I'm going to say hair spray and a lighter. You can definitely do yourself in with it. You have to light first and then spray. Don't do this at home. According to beavis and butt head, you light first and then you spray. So there you go. Also, actual, if they use eyes to track you, actual spray paint might be good. Because if you can spray paint in their eyes, you can avoid them being able to see you. If that's how they, you know, but it really depends. My answer for everything is always it depends. But I'm going to go with those. So I'm going with both things being spray items. And then when you're done as a last ditch attempt, you throw the empty can at their head.

MM: Yeah, you're going to run out real fast.

Baba: Maybe, yeah, well, you know. Maybe a couple of propane tankers. Good luck with your shovel. I'm saying spray paint. I'm saying a lighter and some Aquanet, the big can of Aquanet.

Danny C: It reminds me of like forming a party in any role playing game where you have different people have their different skills. You know, you have this person has like the heavy long distance weapon. Someone else has like the quick, you know, light weapon that can be used multiple times and quickly. You definitely want to partner up with people so you can definitely have different types of weapons.

Baba: Like screw this, I want the yo-yo.

Danny C: Yeah, I don't know what I would pick. Because like that, I would want something that is, that you can use quickly. So like something, a knife, you know, is very quick, but you want something that's distance, like a shovel, and that has some mass to it as well. But you also don't want something in my head that's like has limited supply. So, you know, like you were saying, the spray paint or something like that. So I don't know what I would pick. A knife can get stuck, you know. It can, and you don't want that. You don't want that. So I might have to go with something like that, a shovel or a rake or something as well. Something goes like that, the distance. I know I'd probably, you know, I didn't say this, but since I asked the question, I'm going to add this on. You know, maybe have like something else on my belt, you know, maybe like a knife or something, as a last resort, something I can use when the shovel gets stuck or something like that.

Baba: Well, and something worth noting that you want to think about this for different zombie scenarios. So people in the comments, would it be depending on the zombie scenario? Cause like a gun would be pretty good. And actually a lot of houses have that.

MM: Yeah, but then you got to like remember, get a brother on the ammo.

Baba: That's going to run out too, yeah.

MM: Yeah, but then what you got to do, you got to, yeah.

Baba: Yeah, but a shovel's only going to, it's not going to work if it's, if it's a, it might not work if it's an animated corpse because it doesn't care. Honey badger, anyway, yeah, like, you know.

MM: Well, we have to also get, I mean, the question would be like, what's the way to defeat it? Traditionally, right? Smash up in the head, and that usually takes the zombie out for some weird reason. Like it's always, you get, that's the, taking out their arms or legs doesn't really stop them, but taking out their head for some reason usually is the thing that knocks them down. Yeah, so that-- You just got to make sure, you got to make sure that that's the, if that's the criteria.

Danny C: Yeah, that suggests that they're not animated. That suggests that they actually have some, like it's all stems, it all stems, it all stems from the brain. Right, right.

MM: Versus the evil dead ones that can become, it's the evil that gets in you, so your hand could become animated and, you know, try to kill you.

Baba: You know, this could be kind of a fun game. So it's a zombie, it's a zombie game. You have to pick your equipment and your character, but you don't know what kind of zombie it is. (Laughing) You might go for like, well, I'm going to go for like the baseball bat, but it's like, it's evil dead type.

MM: Perhaps you also have to revisit this. You're done. Maybe we'll have to like revisit a game where it's all about like how to defeat, which, you know, what household appliances are best suited to defeat this terror? Well, obviously in the case of the mirror thing, you just need something to smell. (Laughing)

Baba: The mirror. You know, this should become one of our regular questions. If you're in an average house and then you're fighting against this thing, what's your best bet? Yeah.

Danny C: Well, I think in this scenario too, I think you'd also add, you know, where are you? Because if you're in a hallway, a shovel is not a great idea, but if you're in a graveyard, for instance, you know, you're, you know, I just happen to be, you know, walking around, communing with nature, zombies are there and you pick up a shovel, you know, that could work. Yeah, or a backhoe. No. You're in your average cemetery, or

MM: what do you use? Yeah, but definitely a backhoe. It's slow, it's also slow moving like the zombies, but you can just crunch over.

Baba: Like in a house, most weapons are a bad idea. Because if you're using the spray paint, Like the house ones. Yeah, the hairspray and lighter, you set the house on fire. If you're using a shovel, you're gonna be smashing the ceiling and you're not gonna be able to wield it. In that scenario, you'd be better off with like, like a pot from the kitchen. Just like it's short, it's sturdy, you don't need to be super accurate. It's not gonna get stuck. But yeah, but if you're out in the world, you're gonna want that shovel instead, because otherwise it's like, you know, like a saucepan. Like, you know.

MM: Well, hopefully your pot is cast iron of some sort, you know, like a nice. Yeah, or at least like stainless steel. Something's got a good whack. Nice and good sound. Maybe like a two by four. Like if you have one, they go out.

Baba: Like cast iron, it's heavy and hard to swing, you know? Yeah, yeah. Choices, yeah, you have your choice of kitchen gear. What's it gonna be?

MM: Because maybe you could layer it on, have a little armor

MM: going on too, you know, like strap it to your chest.

Baba: That's true, especially for, and if they teamed up with skeletons, you might need that because that would have swords.

MM: Yeah, skeletons always have swords for, or shields, you know, which is weird.

Baba: And they're likely to team up with zombies because they're naturally resistant to zombie attacks.

Danny C: Zombies don't find them very appetizing. What if they had a zombie dog? What would that do?

Baba: They would not team up with skeletons.

MM: Yeah, yeah, there would have a--

Baba: They have a conflict of interest.

MM: Now, if we get into skeletons, can we do dinosaur skeletons?

Baba: For audio only listeners, I'm wearing a Jurassic Park shirt. (Laughing)

MM: Dan, you mentioned being out in the graveyard, and that seems to be, going back to the, you know, thinking of the original Night of Living Dead, zombies just somehow come out of the graveyard for some reason. Yeah, maybe we should, next time, let's talk about scary burial sites. Ooh, I like that. Graveyard, I guess, pyramids. Like, why is it like-- Yeah, it goes back to that. Henges. Why are we so scared of, that's so weird, because we have them, we've always, as a ritualistic burial is something we always seem to do, but why are they so, why is it so creepy?

Baba: Is it because they used to come back?

MM: Yeah. (Laughing) Maybe embalming actually is not about anything but keeping them from coming back. Hopefully, like, in a weird sense, some people want, you know, they might want you to come back, so like, I mean, that's the whole point of some of this, right? So yeah, so let's, maybe we should talk about that.

Baba: Graveyard's in our future. And in our future discussions, but also maybe in our, oh!

MM: Well, potentially, yeah. Depending. I might be more for the cremations. (Laughing)

Baba: I'm more for the lich things. The lich things. I just gotta hang around. (Laughing) Hang around, I'll be going on tangents forever. I just won't look quite as cute.

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