EP 14: Are Real Psychics Actually Able To Predict The Future?

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The Wondering Monsters Podcast dives deep into mysterious folklore, strange phenomena, and the unexplained—and in this episode, the hosts explore a question humanity has pondered for thousands of years: Are real psychics truly able to predict the future? From ancient divination methods to modern-day tarot readings and fortune-telling laws, the conversation spans history, metaphysics, psychology, and ethics. This SEO-optimized summary captures the most compelling insights from the lively debate.

Defining "Fortune Telling": What Counts as Predicting the Future?

The hosts begin by establishing a working definition of fortune telling: A person (not an object or animal) who claims an ability to perceive future events or reveal hidden information about the present, often through non-physical or supernatural means.

This definition intentionally excludes:

• Prophets in religious traditions
• Ritual-based divination practices tied to specific deities
• Generalized "omens" without an interpreting human

However, the line between divination, spiritual communication, and fortune telling is extremely blurry. Tarot reading, astrology, scrying, and rune casting all blur these boundaries—and different cultures classify them very differently.

The Ancient Origins of Fortune Telling

Humanity's fascination with knowing the future dates back at least 6,000 years. The hosts trace the origins of fortune telling to:

• Ancient China (bone divination, oracle bones, early forms of the I Ching)
• Egypt
• Babylon
• Early numerology and astrology

The Shang Dynasty's use of burned turtle shells, and the later development of the Four Pillars of Destiny, show that structured divination systems are far from modern inventions.

By the 16th century, fortune tellers appeared in European literature, including Shakespeare's Comedy of Errors. But the most radical spike in spiritualism arrived after World War I, when millions sought mediums to contact lost loved ones.

When Fortune Telling Became Illegal

In the early 1900s, American authorities began cracking down on professional fortune tellers—especially in cities like Manhattan. Many were arrested under fraud or public-morals statutes, especially if they accepted payment for readings. Tea rooms and occult parlors became targets of sting operations.

Even today, New York State still has laws requiring fortune telling to be labeled "for entertainment purposes only." Some counties across the U.S. continue to enforce or revive these laws—usually at the discretion of a "local jerk," as the hosts put it.

Modern concerns often revolve around the potential for fraud, exploitation, or money laundering, especially because fortune telling services typically require no physical inventory.

Hollywood's Influence: Why Fortune Telling Seems Scary

From The Exorcist to James Bond, pop culture has shaped public perceptions of psychic readings as dangerous gateways to demonic forces. The infamous "death card" trope in tarot imagery is largely a Hollywood invention. Historically, tarot began simply as a card game brought to Europe through Islamic cultures, later acquiring occult associations.

But the idea that "asking questions opens spiritual gates" remains deeply ingrained in modern Western fear-based narratives about the occult.

Tarot Cards, Omens, and the Origins of Divination Tools

Tarot didn't start as a mystical device—it was originally a Mamluk card game, later modified by Europeans. When gamblers noticed lucky or unlucky hands, they began viewing the cards as omens. Over centuries, this superstition evolved into systems of symbolic interpretation.

Tarot eventually grew into one of today's most well-known fortune-telling tools, alongside:

• Astrology
• Runes
• Tea leaf reading (tasseography)
• Crystal ball scrying
• Palmistry
• The I Ching (which the hosts describe as "creepy" in its sometimes literal accuracy)

These systems rely heavily on symbols, patterns, and long-standing traditions. But where skeptics see coincidence, practitioners see evidence of deeper connections.

Do Fortune Tellers Actually Help People? The Ethics of Prediction

One of the most thoughtful parts of the discussion centers around whether fortune telling can provide positive psychological benefits, even if it isn't literally supernatural.

Practical benefits from a "fake" reading might include:

• Encouragement to pursue goals
• Reduced anxiety
• A sense of clarity or motivation
• External affirmation of inner feelings

This parallels the Pygmalion Effect, a phenomenon where people perform better simply because they believe others expect them to.

The hosts also acknowledge ethical problems:

• A true believer may unintentionally give harmful advice
• A fraud can deliberately manipulate clients
• People with OCD or magical-thinking disorders may develop unhealthy obsessions
• Substituting readings for medical or psychological care can be dangerous

Despite this, many fortune tellers genuinely want to help their clients, and many clients receive meaningful emotional value from readings.

Science, Skepticism, and the Limits of Human Knowledge

The conversation frequently returns to the tension between scientific materialism and metaphysical worldviews. One host argues that science cannot be the only measure of what is real, pointing out that:

• Empirical science relies on limited human senses
• Many people have experiences that fall outside scientific explanation
• Historical scientific models (like Newtonian physics) are replaced as new information emerges

Another compares the spiritual realm to bacteria before microscopes: just because you can't measure something yet doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

Fortune telling, in this view, may work through metaphysical mechanisms beyond current scientific understanding.

Technology and the Future of Divination

The hosts explore modern adaptations of fortune telling, such as:

• Digital tarot apps
• Astrology algorithms
• AI-generated readings
• Early 20th-century fortune-telling arcade machines (some of which used record players to simulate voices)

But do digital readings "count"?
Some argue that divination requires human intention and ritual; others suggest supernatural forces could manipulate electronics as easily as physical objects—similar to reported "phone calls from the dead."

Ultimately, the meaning may rely less on the tool and more on the mindset of the person seeking answers.

Are Real Psychics Scary? The Final Monster Rating

As with every Wondering Monsters Podcast episode, the hosts assign a "monster rating." Instead of judging whether psychics are real, they judge whether the idea of someone truly knowing the future is frightening.

Their final scores:

• Baba: 1 monster — not scary, just fascinating
• Danny C: 1 monster — future knowledge could be useful, not frightening
• WDG: 2 monsters — predicting the future is inherently a bit creepy, even if beneficial

The average consensus:
Fortune tellers are intriguing but not particularly terrifying—unless their predictions come true in dramatic ways.

Links from the Show

• Are Ouija Boards Real?
• Is Bloody Mary Real?
• Necronomicon & Cursed Books Explained

Watch & Listen to the Full Episode

Enjoy where the conversations of silly meet strange at the Wondering Monsters Podcast.

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Licensing Information

• Title: Entry of the Gladiators
• Composer: Julius Fučík
• Library of Congress (Public Domain)
• Podcast theme song version edited/arranged/mixed by Dan Swift

Unless indicated, images appear in their original form.

Images were generated using AI from MyNinja.ai, NightCafe, lenso.ai, Gemini, or ChatGPT

Transcription

*Transcription was automatically generated and may contain errors.

(Music)

Baba: Ever try to predict your day based on the shapes of things you see in the clouds?

WDG: No, but I believe that.

Baba: Yeah. Unfortunately, it's a funnel cloud. The day already sucks. Don't go back to bed after that. Yeah, no for real Let's chat. What's on your minds's?

Danny C: So I was thinking fortune telling, you know, kind of like going along along the lines with the clouds.

Baba: Yeah.

Danny C: So but before I kind of dive into this head first, let's let's define fortune teller. I'm going to say, you know, it has to it's going to be a person, you know, no dogs. Okay, but a person that

WDG: may be something in the rules that says dogs can't be fortune tellers.

Danny C: Living entity. That seemingly has the ability to perceive the future or possibly talk to non-physical and communicate with non-physical entities. But I think fortune teller I think of something like that. Do we need to refine that anymore? Is that a good place to start?

WDG: Maybe so not like not divination because it doesn't have to do with like religious ceremonies, right and stuff like that. So not that versus like, you know, so like that I guess I would be you know, because those I think are usually separate right.

Danny C: So let's clarify that. So it sounds like prophets are out of the equation, what about scrying

WDG: yeah, yeah, no scrying itself. It's just what you start bringing. I guess like it's a religious ceremony. You're pulling Gods and DDS. Okay, might be a better, but like divination and fortune telling kind of start getting. Yeah, well, they're really wiggly.

Baba: They're really wiggly because I mean a lot of occultists will call tarot reading divination. Sometimes they mean divination is like I'm finding out the inner qualities of the conflict of what's going on rather than I'm telling the future which people from the divine, you know, right, right or what's going to happen if I curse. The local magistrate. Good idea. There's only one way to find out. Sorry. Sorry.

WDG: Curse a local magistrate.

Baba: The only way to find out.

WDG: In this day in age?

Baba: I'd say they're kind of wiggly. I would say though fortune telling it's probably to find out the I'd say it's probably to find out the future to find out the future or to find out the secret details of something going on outside of your. Immediate knowledge is my is my spouse seeing somebody on the side, you know, or is my side piece seeing somebody on this? Yeah, actually right. Probably. Yeah, so I'm gonna say though, you know, is it because if you go back to old school, right, you go to like the the seer who scans the flight of birds and predicts if a war is going to go well. Well, yeah, there are kinds of gods and things involved in that because they're kind of involved in a lot of that stuff in that model of things, you know, but yeah, like so in it's I mean, you're in and Thumen are are things that click into the breastplate of the old Jewish priests old Jewish high priests probably some kind of dice or lots. So I think if you go back far enough, you can't help but to have gods involved on some level because like just a lot of that stuff was if you go back further, maybe not God so much as spirits, but but I think it's going to be a little messy. And I think that's the but I think it's I think it's specifically though finding out secret knowledge probably of the future or of an inaccessible present.

Danny C: Perfect.

Baba: Perfect.

Danny C: So we'll use that as our like a definition as we talk about fortune tellers and fortune telling.

Baba: Yeah, yeah.

Danny C: So I can lead us to a very very brief history of time with fortune telling. Let's do it. As I said, you know in previous episodes, my history is definitely my weakest link human language is a close second. But we'll start with this. So as far as I could tell has roots back to China Egypt Babylonia Babylon rather Babylon Babylon see comment about language. That goes back about 6,000 years includes astrology numerology divination in China. There was talked about the Shang Dynasty using bone divination Bosse. I don't remember what that is, but that was included in it. The Four Pillars of Destiny don't remember what that is. But I was included that as well. It was used for fortune telling for decision on marriage moving nowadays, you know, entertainment as well. Leading up the 16th century I don't think he coined the phrase fortune teller, but in I think was the comedy of errors. I think is what was called talks about the concept at least of the fortune tellers. Bobby you mentioned this before I think during the Ouija Board episode card will be up there somewhere. surged during the during the early 1900s post World War one people trying to contact soldiers overseas or fallen soldiers Manhattan. There was a district attorney that launched a campaign against professional fortune tellers studying fraudulent practices and detriment to public morale and then going to modern times, you know now a few years ago. Used via palmistry tarot card reading crystal ball scrying tea leaf reading which I believe is called tasciography horoscopes and I would also add astrology and the Ouija Board.

WDG: there is still a law on the books in New York that fortune telling is illegal. it has to be for entertainment purposes only and aside from that one person you're talking about that launched a campaign in like the 20s and 30s because for to tell it was illegal like they did underground tea rooms and fortune telling was just something you got on the side. But if people took money for it that wasn't like tips or it was an included service in like the thing you would get a thing and there was actually like sting operations to bust these kinds of things. And so yeah, so still like but to this day, it's like they not removed that law. I don't know how enforced that the NYPD is like going around busting for shit tellers, it's still kind of funny that it's just still sitting there as a potential law to break it

Baba: is often it's a local jerk. My little jerk that brings it and it's like there's some someone with like the Sheriff's Department or something out in like Lancaster area, Pennsylvania and a lady that was running a shop that included tarot readings as big for entertainment only purposes didn't matter. They brought they were actually like bringing charges and trying to shut her down. She's still fighting it. I mean, it's been like couple years

WDG: I'm guessing there's Pennsylvania laws against you.

Baba: I mean, actually a lot of places you got to be really careful about how you say it.

Danny C: Let's go to say earlier, just a little little like little nudge there. Do you think when the jerk is like, we're gonna bust this person and they'll never see this coming?

Baba: Yeah, darn. People say they're not very good at fortune-telling for themselves. I think it's a yeah, so let's talk about it. How we want to jump into this. We've got we've got the is it real? Does it work?

Danny C: So when it comes to the end, when you do it when we do our ratings, I think that's what it should be based on something like that, like the likelihood of it being real or we have to tower the questions a little bit more. I think kind of in that as opposed to like being scared or whatever.

Baba: Yeah, let's talk about this the thing that freaks people out the most this is all I blame the exorcist for most of this. So like so many things Hollywood is to blame. Actually, one of the things that popularized the tarot a lot. There's a James Bond movie. Help me out. Live and let die.

WDG: Might have been. This when they that's they use the tarot in that. Yeah, you know, it's like the death card. Yeah, but but but but the thing is that person to kind of is fraudulent if I'm not mistaken in to be because it is like a front for like other criminal stuff and they and they mix up a lot of like really that movie has a lot of possible very very problematic. Stereo.

Baba: and so also so the exorcist the exorcist freaks a bunch of people out because you've got this idea. So once you open the doors to demonic possession as a narrative people are talking about wind up with this like you ask questions things. Demons come through Gates. wish it were that simple. But yeah, like because I'll tell you what I'd mix it up. I'd mix I'd mix up this wrong. But that kind of idea of well, if you ask these cards these questions you open a gate if you ask this board a question you open a gate if you ask the mirror who going to marry it's bad because you're going to open a gate. But if you go back before that actually like there are a lot of things at times this kind of thing was probably really common. I mean people read omens all the time, you know, you a shoelace and you you spill your coffee and you know, the third bad thing happens like oh, it's gonna be a day like that. You know, people don't tend to do it in the other way. You know, it's like oh, well, this is working out. Well, it's starting. It's coming. Good luck. Unavoidable. Good luck. But yeah, we tend to and and maybe it a lot of it is that kind of fear-based like is something bad going to happen something horrible is gonna happen, you know,

WDG: yeah, our modern conceptions of like fortune-telling like fall into these like Victorian like parlor But like you said, it wasn't really about like opening gates and stuff at that point. It was more just like well, I mean sometimes might be talking to the dead, practices of other cultures that were being like imported, you know into like and played around with with higher society.

Baba: tarot cards enter in as a with the mum luck decks that probably came through Egypt and they were an Islamic game and the cards before that from China that was the first place we believe cards themselves came from but so you get these weird things that like folks in in in Europe and stuff had never really seen this kind of thing these mum luck decks and you'll have like the similar things. I believe they might have had swords and and coins and things like I can't remember if they were the same suits because you'll see these variety of suits across history and across Europe acorns are sometimes a suit. I feel like that's like a German thing, but so you have these weird things that come in and they're often associated with now, I'm going to tick off some of the tarot people because the other stories that there is this sacred book of soath came down and then people made it into a game or something but no, it was it doesn't seem that way. It don't not to me. Anyway, it seems like it was a game and people realized probably in that omen kind of way, you know, I got a lucky hand like things are going well for me. I got an unlucky hand. I can cover my gambling debt. You know, you could get in some serious trouble like this game became very kind of serious and you play in it in Tavern type places and things like that where other things you're not supposed to be doing or going on but that idea of the omen giving you a sense of hey can these things tell me about other omens if they can tell me how the game is going to go and whether I'm going to get money, you know, can I use them for other things, you know, I think that's that's a lot of a lot of the history of magic and fortune telling things. It's like using stuff for things you're not supposed to use and for for things you're not supposed to be able to do with that stuff, you know, and it's it's, you know, using cards that you're not even supposed to be messing with anyway, and then, you know, use them to tell the future, you're not supposed to ask the future because only God's supposed to know the future.

WDG: But then that kind of goes into the sort of theme of like games becoming, you these sort of, you know, like, like kind of occult devices, but then there's like the obviously the other version of the occult devices start becoming games, like the Ouija board, like the magic eight ball actually starts from a device that's supposed to be a an actual, you know, fortune telling device and turns into a game,

Baba: It's interesting how it works and like the idea of like games as almost this weird kind technology.

WDG: All games demonic technology at some

Baba: good ones. Have you ever played Arkham horror? It definitely seems to have a certain agenda. of my favorite means of fortune telling is quite old and actually goes back to China ancient China the the each thing or the we just actually pronounced each thing with almost but each thing is how I learned it. So the each thing is I believe that the oldest way of doing it was with it was similar is the bone divination type thing it was with tortoise shells and how they burned in the fire and they could be interpreted as being yin or Yang believe also old yin and old Yang and so you wind up with this system of categorizing you wind up with these lines of broken or solid lines and they are arranged in a matrix of to create these hexagrams and you look up the passage in this book. So and so you look at what's old Yang becomes in what's old yin becomes Yang. They call these things changing lines and you read these things from this book and it and then it tells you the answer to your question. So it's like a weird kind of magic book fortune-telling kind of thing and it's really really old and I'll tell you what for anyone that gets wants to give it a go. It's creepy weird. I've had some really accurate readings strangely like strangely literal readings from the each thing. It's worth a go. But but again, that's really really really old system. Obviously astrology goes back really far. And with that if you actually look at the origins of a lot of the aspects of it, you're probably talking about like spirits that are kind of embedded in it. So so if people knew about it, they might be more scared of it if they thought that was a concern for them. If like the the decans and things are probably are spirits, you know, we need to go back back. You know again, you're talking about Ancient Egypt, you know, but a lot of it is still talking about Babylon and things that were imported from all kinds of places and mixed together and then they they they grow over time. But before you had light pollution, the stars people knew the stars. They knew, you know, what was going on and and there's there's more to astrology than a lot of people give credit. I mean a lot of people they know the you know, your horoscope in the when there's a paper. There is this Sunday paper and you read your Sun sign in the horoscope and that's actually probably not the way to do it. You should probably go with your rising sign because you're not going to match everybody that was born in that 30-day period. But the idea is like what was going on in the sky at the time you popped out into the world? And that tells you something about how everything else is going to go and that idea of everything being connected. Is a good explanatory model for a lot of systems of fortune-telling because why the heck did the tortoise shell the way they burn or the way these cards land or the particular runes I pull out? Why should any of that have anything to do with the thing out there and probably because everything's connected because it tells you something about those connections because it's kind of like the as above so below. Sorry. It's a kind of an overused thing. But like this idea that like things are reflected on Earth that are in the cosmos, the cosmos. So yeah, cool stuff though. I really like it and I don't think people should be getting arrested for it.

Danny C: Do you know what the reason is for them getting arrested? If they're blatantly saying this is for entertainment purposes only, like what is the case for what law are they breaking essentially? Does anyone know?

WDG: Well, I mean I guess like the stuff from the older, I mean obviously that still has a law but like the older stuff was basically like if they were taking money like for their services like that was the whole thing. It was like it was considered to be like fraudulent if you were like so if you're like, hey like I'll read your fortune give me 10 bucks, you know, whatever. Like I think I've read this a lot. There's like something with someone that like it was like something about fortunate about someone. They were going to go on it was like it was a sting operation or something like by these police officers in like the 20s or whatever and they like they were doing this to a bunch of those like tea parlor type places and someone like said like they were going to go on a trip or whatever and they asked the woman asked them for 25 cents and she got arrested for that, you know, so it's like so I mean, I think it's just like the idea is like the the relation to like the fortune teller as the as a con artists to some degree. I mean, I'm sure not everybody who does it thinks that they are but I think socially is and especially at that time. I mean even like going back to like wasn't it of thinking like Sir Arthur Conan Doyle was heavily involved in like trying to debunk, you know, a lot of spiritual type practices and things

Danny C: like that. Harry Houdini as well.

WDG: Yeah, and and and then and then there's like so there's that thing and I mean and I think of like I think of my earliest like, you know concept of like what the stereotypical fortune teller is is like from like Wizard of Oz and like what is the wizard like in when it's when he's in the you know, the real world the non Oz world like he's like a con man and I mean technically even in Oz he's also a con, you know, it's like like it's like so and you think about the time period that those books were written and then the even when the movies made like that's like that's what the fortune teller is like a carnival show con artists, you know, not a person who's like this is part of their cultural practice like a Romani or something like that who's actually like it's it's steeped in like, you know, their traditions and things like that. This is like straight-up charlatans trying to scam you out of money, you know, like or and retain you out of money in a depending how you want to look.

Baba: You know, it's like like I mean, even if you look at some of the earlier versions of the tarot we have around or Marseille decks, they predate the Rider Waite Smith by long time. This is for those watching the video. This is Le Batallur the juggler it later becomes the magician by the time you get the Rider Waite Smith deck. It's a shell game on the shell game on there. So it's it's it's in it's that same. So even then, you know, hundreds of years ago, you know, do I have a date on this? This particular one was 1760, but this one that this reproduction was from but but it goes back hundreds of years, you know, and there was already that reputation and like that probably if you look at, yeah, so I think that it's the con man thing the trickery thing. There's also like the uppity Christian thing because like that was still as if we're free from that. But you know, that was a big deal. And then I think now probably because it's really convenient for money laundering because it's a zero inventory business and you could be selling something else that you're not allowed to sell like recreational pharmaceuticals or things, you know, or services. You're not allowed to sell, you know, other services. You're not allowed to sell. So I think it's so the money laundering thing is probably at least partially in there. But but yeah, I don't know. It's kind of it's kind of weird particularly in the post enlightenment. You have this idea that none of this stuff can be real if it can't be tested with the rigor of the scientific method. Okay, you know, but what if I don't know like if you take somebody that writes symphonies you strap a bunch of electrodes their head and you stick them in an empty room and you give them like, you know, under fluorescent lights and you go all right, write a symphony they can, you know, not inspired. I'm not I can't do it under these conditions. You know, would you conclude that symphonies don't exist? They're not real or would you think that well, you know, when emotions are involved in something sometimes stick a bunch of electrodes on people's heads and staring at them like they're a con artist might influence the outcomes, you know, I'm not so sure that that it should be a hard and fast and conclusion. In fact, I reject the idea that everything that's considered that should be considered real has to be subjected to the scientific method because science is not without its problems. It starts with its own assumptions, you know, like sense experience is the only crucial test of the world. It's the everything should be verifiable by the five human senses or prosthetic devices that amplify or extend those senses and it's I think that's some nonsense. Most people have had weird experiences that science can account for and

WDG: this might be like weird because it might not might fall outside of the realm of like fortune telling necessarily but like the like artists medium type person and like the idea of like, you know, cold readings and stuff can be like almost just as accurate or have the same level of accuracy as like that, but I guess also the scam artists medium also similar is like the scam artists, faith healer or preacher or something. So it might fall outside of that of the of our defined realm, but like yeah for that kind of like but those are you know, it's like that kind of stuff is like the you know, versus like, you know, when you can do a cold reading and get the no practically similar results to people, you know, so that gets it like, you know into a weird gray area.

Baba: Yeah, it's like that. I mean going back to that like, you know, I mean you can send money to Oral Roberts University, you know to get your magic or your your prayer cloth, which is actually a favor put her on something that and it'll fix it. Yeah, yeah, there's definitely no legal though.

WDG: Yeah, it's definitely falls into a great area of something.

Baba: I'm sure I think those things those guys have lobbyists.

WDG: or hired goons, you know,

Danny C: they different?

Baba: Sometimes they can be sometimes they moonlight, you know,

WDG: Dan, what would you guess I lose?

Danny C: I don't know, but I'm gonna keep moving forward. So talking about cold readings and I was gonna wait to mention this till later, but I think now is probably a good time to mention this. So let's talk about the positives that could come out of going to see a fortune teller that and let's say that they are in fact, they're doing it just for entertainment purposes. Like there's no no real skill they have. So we're gonna assume this right from the get-go for this example. Okay. Yeah. They do a cold reading of some kind, but the person actually gets good information out of it. Right. What is what's the question? I want to ask that I want to debate here. Is that is that a good thing or is that a bad thing? Let's start there. So for instance, a real example, but we're not an example. That didn't really happen, but an example, you know, you know, the person decides they would go see a crystal ball scryer will call them and the person is looking in the crystal ball and they say, oh, I see here that you are very involved with a new new Avenue in your business or work or something like that. The person. Oh, yeah, you know, I'm up for a promotion or okay. Well, you know, if you keep working hard, like it seems like this will pan out or something along those lines where it's like that almost added encouragement to propel the person forward. Okay, good thing or a bad thing. What do you think?

Baba: It depends on the outcome, right? And that's it's the Mcbeth problem. got yelled at this for bringing this I was talking to people in a theater. I think you're not supposed to talk about this in a theater. Yeah, it's not a problem.

WDG: I see episode of cursed plays and cursed theater. Yes. Next week.

Baba: I mentioned it to them. Yeah, they're like I'm just Scottish play. I was like, oh, my path. They're like, you said it again. I'm like, oh, guard. I forgot you're not supposed to say yeah, but the Mcbeth problem, right? So alert, if you haven't read it, the Mcbeth problem for me.

WDG: Doesn't go well. It might be someone might say that it ends in tragedy.

Baba: Most upon these witches that give him this idea that he he if he does in not the Stygian witches but not the Stygian witches though these other witches that are just hanging out that if he in the is it the Duke? Yes, the doing the Duke that he will become Duke or whatever he he kills some royal guy and then he ascends to that thing and it doesn't go out go well for him. But like actually a lot of like the it's kind of like what if he hadn't acted on it would because they also predict that they predict that you will remain ruler as long as Burnham would until Burnham would comes to Duncenane, which is like it's not going to happen, but it kind of does happen because a bunch of people chop down the woods and sneak up disguised as trees, you know to do them in in the end, but like it's him acting on the prophecy that causes that last prophecy to come true. So when you act on something and then it you know, so it depends on the outcome. But but I often think that like people are often going for confirmation on things. It was something they were going to do anyway and they you know, it's like a it's like a bit of like a Rorschach and you're looking like an inkblot It's like well, what what are you projecting on to it? And that's kind of what a lot of people say. Well, it's nothing really going on. You're just just a Rorschach. You're just projecting onto this fit the way like you would onto a cold reading or whatever, you know, you are deriving something from this now. Maybe you're getting good information because it's unearthing things in your unconscious that you've been ignoring or something like that. or maybe it just confirms what you wanted anyway, but

WDG: Dan given your example, like I think like I think that's probably in the realm of fine. The person is going there of their own volition. They know what they're getting involved in right? The information is just like, you know, if it's like that kind of thing where it's like there's nothing that the person giving the reading is getting out of it, you know, they're not getting it, you know, like whatever like maybe maybe a repeat custom. I don't know.

Danny C: There's something wrong with that. Is that is that like morally wrong if someone is?

WDG: Say like in that sense of like, you know, like they're just and like if they're like, oh, yeah, like it seems like you know, your new job is going well, and I'm sure if you keep working at you might get a promotion or whatever like, you know, whatever and it's like and if the person does like, oh, well, that's great. I'm gonna work real hard on my job and then they do get the promotion. It's like well, they just need that extra little bit of encouragement to like, put their anxieties behind them. It reminds me of like and I'm gonna probably butcher this because like I'm not gonna know the exact study, but I've seen so many people like talk about it in different things where it's like this idea that like a teacher is told like they pick a student at random doesn't matter like, you know, it's like great generally like grade school. I think is they think and they they're told this teacher is told this child is super gifted and they like they're not gonna seem like it and they don't you know, they're gonna need like, you know, it's like and they're gonna need encouragement to like come you know, but like but they've been tested. We know that they're like really gifted, but like they need that extra little push to make sure that and like the kid generally isn't and the teacher treats them that way. And when the teacher treats them that way the kid generally excels, you know, and it's like this like kind of idea that like well, you know, what is happening? You know, it's like it's like and that kind of I feel like the your example kind of reminds me like more of that kind of thing like, you know, it's like they just need to see encouragement to like, do the thing that then cause the outcome, you know versus that, you know, and it's like and I don't think it's like and it's you know, I don't think like and if the person kind of knows going into it like I mean in the case of that teacher thing, they weren't like this kid was prophesized be something but you know, but but it still has a prophetic element like this person is going to be exceptional if they're given the right things and it's like which means that like everyone's exceptional if they're given the right things. Yeah, there's such thing as exceptional exceptional is what is crafted into right thing. Yeah, granted there might be some things that give different advantages, but like if people are just provided with the advantage they they will do all people can do well, you know, so it's like I kind of feel like it falls more in that realm than like you like give me half of your fortune when you get it, you know, it's like, you know, right.

Baba: So commenting on that it's a thing known as the Pygmalion effect and it's a it's actually even less overt than that. It's they tell the teachers that these students are gifted but not to treat them differently. Okay, but the teachers unconsciously do treat them as if they're gifted and therefore those students wind up doing better, you know, but they were actually just average students that that's at least the how the and so so so yeah, I mean, so in that sense, it's like it's even something that's less conscious and more unconscious, you know, I mean, okay, let's take a different one, right? Your bicycle is in the basement of the Alamo, right? But it's not because there is no basement in the album Pee Wee, right? Pee Wee goes on his adventure to find his bike in the basement of the Alamo. There is no basement in the Alamo, but he does find his bike. That woman was a straight-up Con artist, practically like Kaiser Sozang, you know, just like picking stuff around, you know, to say where it is. And so it's like, well, but he got his bike. So she did lie to him and did scam him and he got his bike in the end, not not where he thought it was. But like, so yeah, when it comes to I think ethics are a difficult thing to pin down. This is coming from a philosophy major. Ethics are a difficult thing to pin down because you have to deal with like, is it the outcome or the intention that makes the thing ethical? There's more, but who cares? The idea is like, did she purposely try to scam you and do whatever in this example is because there's a female fortune teller in that or or was it unintentional? Like what if what if a reader believes in what they're doing? Is it and it winds up causing you bad stuff because you acted on it? It's an evil thing, you know, like it's kind of like is it the outcome? Is it the intention? Is it the act itself because you're dealing with demons and they're bad? it? I mean, okay, like away on. I don't think this is a moral. I don't think there's a moral question about it. Now some some would say I've got too flexible a morality. I think a lot of it depends on what camp you're standing in. I think if you ask deck of cards, if what your future is going to be and you consider that evil, but you're a man through men Jewish high priests and the devices of your man through men. Well, we're asking God so it's different. is it like I had a night shift job many years ago working at Walmart and I had very interesting folks on my night shift and one of them with that. There are a lot of Christians on that night shift. I was not in with that but but the they are doing these tarot cards, but they're not tarot cards. They're Oracle cards. They're angel cards. Okay, so that if there are angels on there, which actually Rider-Waite Smith does have angel things going on it, but if there are angels on there, well, then it's not bad. You know, that's just silly reasoning, you know, because actually like angels have been Angel magic can get in all kinds of dicey stuff involving angels.

WDG: Biblical, accurate, accurate. It's like or like some weird or like kind of like Gnostic type things like Archon. These things can get real dicey. Like they have like just from it.

Baba: I think people think well, if it's got the right flavor, like if you use the Bible to curse somebody versus you use, I don't know,

WDG: but maybe maybe we're just I kind of feel like I feel like the like there's a like if you add like I think like a human element of like like you were saying Chris like a true believer person like who's like, you know, once they've been they're not doing this to scam people. They believe that what they're doing is right. They're doing like some kind of like, you know, just maybe not like straight up like Oracle like I'm going to spirits, but I'm just doing like, you know, of tower reading or something all that like did like scrying or something like that kind of thing. I think most people who are that it's not really like a only there is like a moral judgment because they probably are trying to give the people good advice. I don't think I don't think people who believe that kind of stuff think that they would be like doing something wrong or harmful like now obviously a person who's intentionally scamming someone they're clearly doing something wrong or harmful, but that's but they probably also don't believe in what they're doing because if they did they wouldn't be like I don't think someone's like oh, yeah, I think for telling is totally real. I'm going to use it to scare people out of money. Like I feel like that I don't feel like I feel like I'm like extra work. Yeah, I feel like it's like a mutually like like it and I think like the person who does believe it's real and does believe that they're doing it like whether it is or not like like or just taking the weather it is or not out of the equation for a minute like that's like I think those people probably trying to do like give better best advice to you know, the person that they're I don't think that they would be trying to steer someone in a really bad direction like on purpose would be it'd be very like, you know, odd now, maybe like supplementing, something like going to your tower reader for like, you know, going to therapy when you probably might need that like that might not be the best like, you know, like, you know, so like, like changing things out just like kind of like, you know, if you need something else that might be more helpful, you know, it's a but yeah, it's it's

Baba: go back to like, why are these things illegal or why do they buy to people try to quash them or whatever? Part of it is the superstition of materialism, you know, come at me in the comments if you don't like what I said.

WDG: Yeah.

WDG: Our arguments. Let's do it.

Baba: Engage it here. This is love you people. No, no hostility. It's all fun. So I think part of it's that I think part of it is also that like it or not society wants to function with a bunch of gate keepers on what's real and true and and so you do have these things of like, I mean, it gets complicated. You've got your your experts on everything, you know, and you're not supposed to question those in me. Look, you can you know, but but there's this there's this discouragement of going against the grain and I mean, it doesn't matter. You can be told to be yourself in every childhood cartoon, but as soon as you try to be yourself in your Catholic grade school because I went to a Catholic grade school, you know, it's you get pushed back in line and be like everybody else there's this thing of like well, you should go to the trusted experts. You should go to therapists and and law enforcement These are the people that you should go to to get your answers. But what when you're when you're going to Tyra readers and things to get your answers, you're already like outside of a certain system of control. You're already like in this kind of. Not following the script kind of world to some extent. Now, it's your bachelorette party and y'all are getting readings because it's just a fun thing to do to see how things are going to go. Whatever, you know, but if you're going to a reader to get some good in some info on what to do with your life, some people would be like, well, that's irresponsible because couched in that because this stuff isn't real and therapy is real and works and does what well it gets a certain outcome. But I think like when you're when you're charting these things, you're already looking for some different outcomes outcomes that haven't been provided by the tools that you've been provided. And the unfortunate answer I think to this is like you're on your own, but you know what you already were on your own. If you decided to believe whoever whether they called themselves an expert, whether they had other people saying they're an expert or whether you decided to go to the soothsayer to get them to say some sooths, then you're on your own either way because you do your life is you are responsible for your outcomes within reason within reason. I know a lot of people are gonna not like that, but you have to make up your own damn mind about whether this stuff is getting you closer or further from the kind of life you want. But that's my opinion.

WDG: I'm not trying to hard push back, but there's like but there's you know some like things where like, you know, like certain disorders like that, you know, like obsessive compulsive disorder where people are, you know, in that magical thinking mode that causes them to get into like, you know, loops and things. It's like, you know, that is like, you know, just like it's it's problematic. Yeah, those things probably need like different types of things like that aren't like and I'm not talking like talk therapy or something like that, but like straight up like other things like that where you know getting falling into something that causes like magical thinking things might be a bad solution for someone like that, you know, where like in that case like, you know, there might be better better solutions. It's seeking, you know, a css or type thing, you know, for something like that. So there probably are is cases where it's like and then you know and that some people might have a problem and they might not even know that that's their problem. That's where their problem falls like they haven't been, you know diagnosed or don't know that this is what's causing them this distress and something like along the lines of any type of thing that is like in that realm superstition type of things like is going to cause, you know, could cause further harm to their outcomes in life, you know, like so that's just a you know, that's just just something to you know, just just to throw there's caveat to that kind of thing.

Baba: Carl Sagan wrote a book years ago called many years ago because of course Carl Sagan is no longer with us or are you? Got the cards too soon. I'm just kidding. I think Carl would think it was funny. notion of like the book caught on demon-haunted world science as a light in the dark and his thing because Carl Sagan didn't believe in this stuff and he and basically the idea was like look science frees us from all of this these ghosts and goblins and it gives us something that we can rely on and whatever and look for the most part sure, you know, you're probably not going to get hurt by sticking with the scientifically validated world. But I just I shake a stick at the notion that that is the limits of reality. and I think actually a lot of people experience things outside of that, agree now when it comes to like concluding as far as like various like DSM diagnoses and things like that. That's out of my wheelhouse, you know, and and I think you have to do what's making your I think do what makes your life better. And if you find that obsessing over signs and things like that doesn't make your life better than stay away from it, you know, and and you know, but if somebody that might have otherwise been diagnosed with a DSM condition, I'm just going to call it that. Goes to a shamanic healer and experiences relief from. The suffering that they were experiencing or the problematic behavior or whatever. Is that okay? Some people would say no because that's not a real doctor or a real whatever. And I'm just I'm just kind of a little bit like you make up your own mind kind of on it. But but I get what you're saying. So I mean, it's you know, it's problematic topic, but

Danny C: this is interesting. So probably about a month, month or two ago, I guess I'm speaking to this woman, Laura Van Tyne, the spiritual spiritual the spiritual spiritual healer psychic. But when when I first met her, exorcist was also attached to that title as well. And one of the neat things that that kind of stuck with me that she said she was like, you know, we didn't always believe in like bacteria viruses, but they're there. You know, it wasn't till we got the microscope. It was like, you know that confirmation and she made that comparison to different stuff that's going on in like the quote unquote spiritual world. You know that just because we don't have the stuff there to measure science doesn't have the stuff there to measure it now doesn't mean it's not there. You know, it's like a very very interesting remark that she made.

Baba: Yeah, yeah. And I think there is that that tendency for people to think well, I'm just gonna call it magic magic is just something science hasn't proven yet, but eventually we'll have all these scientific explanations for it. I disagree. I think that is there's a tendency with magic and magic magic adjacent things to try to dress themselves up in the explanatory models of the day so they can be so they can be respected, but I don't think they function in the same way and I don't think that you can take one model and explain the whole world with it, whether it's the five human senses or whether it's reason because for a long time, there's a debate about whether logic dictated reality reason dictated reality or the human experience with the senses is what are there's a debate about this empiricism versus rationalism and we've come out with some kind of mutant, you know, and and we pretend that it delivers certainty. No, it doesn't science is not deductive. Otherwise, you wouldn't have things like general relativity displacing Newtonian physics Newtonian physics still works. This is not thought of as true in the same sense anymore. It's practically true. It gets certain outcomes and so that's that's kind of the problem with this stuff is that you kind of have to play around with it. Okay. Look if you're prone to playing around with this, I think you play around with it when the stakes are low and then you decide what you will do with it. And if it if it's not helpful if it's guided if it's messing you up, this isn't for you. There are plenty of explanatory models for the world and you should pick one of those that gets you more the life you want.

WDG: weird technological adaptations of the fortune telling person like even starting with like the like penny arcade fortune telling machines from like the very early 20th century, which are some of the earliest like arcade machines they decided to make fortune tellers who tell you for it. Like, you know, like these like very like over like there's the one

Danny C: is like something like you would see in the movie big like something like that.

WDG: Yes, and that would be like this old tar or whatever is like the like a later like issue version of it. But like they started making them like I think the earliest ones are like 1902 or 1904 like there was a couple companies that made these one even had like record a record player. I think only one still exists in a museum somewhere and it's like and they but there was a couple of these and it was like it would be could actually answer like the record player play and a tube like the amplifier was would come up out of you know, it sound like the thing was talking and it actually had I think separate fortunes for women and men, you know, that was like play, you know, and so so we could actually do this kind of interaction versus the ones that would just like say either a predefined script or like didn't talk but like did something and then drop the car, you know, like and so there's all these of variation and there's even like the fortune-telling machines like the you would grab and they would tell you know, like, you know, like the kind of electrode type of things but yeah, and they would so like so they would often be these kind of like mechanical things and that's like really weird that like very even like early on when we're starting to make these kinds of weird entertainment. So that's like we start with that type of thing or those things and they still do exactly. I think I mean obviously they were made up until like I want to say like the maybe like the 50s or so, you know, like so the like the later ones, you know, and you can still find some of them floating around in different places, you know, on like I know the boardwalk near us has a you know, some very old like penny arcade machines in the back and I believe there's is the one arcade and I believe there's like a fortune-telling machine back there, you know, like the whole thing, you know, so yeah, that gives you the cards on the fortune. I don't know just like but and then I think and now like there's like apps that will do tower readings for you and there are like, you know, there's ones that are even like gamified that you can like earn like points and do things like that will get you, you know, like like breathing exercise. I don't know. I just think it's interesting to like that. We've like as we're inventing technology for also like like tech like venting technology on mysticism, you know, I mean like yes, it's entertainment type things, but like I don't know where do you fall in line aside from I mean those fortune-telling machine things are pretty creepy and that's kind of scary. I don't know if they were as scary to people back in the day, but it's a yeah, I find them to be kind of unsettling probably more so than going to an actual person to tell your fortune.

WDG: You know, yeah, just yeah,

Baba: it's kind of odd. Yeah, I think I think it's cool. Okay, so my way in on the on the digital stuff like could it work? I guess. I don't like it. I don't like it because I don't like digital stuff. I like cards. I like physical things. So some people think that it's like the energy. So kind of psychic energy some kind of invisible energy or that guides the cards and so there's the idea of like don't touch my cards because you'll get your energy on them or please touch the cards because I want to see what your fate is based on your energy and things like that. I don't really necessarily think that's the case. I actually think it's kind of more. I think it's a ritual. I think it's a ritual. I think I think it's magic and you like when you go and you sit down and you start and you do the card sort and things like that. I think when you go into it with the intention of getting an answer, I think a lot of things can provide an answer because I think you can you could go for a walk and just decide this walk. I'm going for for an oracular purpose. I'm going to learn some sign to come to me by to answer my question and go for a walk and a sign comes to you. I think that's a legitimate ish approach to getting some Intel, but my thing is like I think a general rule of thumb is you might want to have more than one source of Intel in the same way that if you're running a government, you might have okay. Look, look, look, we have the FBI and the CIA and the NSA and like, hey, all these little Intel things and one might have some information. I think it's corroborated by another answer. So if you have some corroborated information, that might be something to explore to go in that direction. But again, it's kind of like a rule of thumb. So it's like if if I am that you'll see these things on like YouTube, it'll be like if you see this video, it's meant for you and it's like well, that's like the big thing of like everything that happens is a sign. And I think that is danger going back to like the like the OCD thing we talked about of I don't think you should interpret everything as a sign all the time. I think that can get a little a little muddy, but I think you can but under these certain circumstances almost like you bracket off this time where you'll consider these omens to be more significant than you might in other times because we've designated this sort of time as and space as a time and space where this kind of thing can happen.

WDG: Well, then what if like taking something like I guess this again, this is probably falling outside the realm of fortune telling but like in you know, if astrology is mostly like systematic, right, you know, but if there's like a computer model system that can take into account many many more variables than the average person who is just going about doing their own like various charts and stuff like that like with this that is like that as a technology part would that be like, you know, like the different like, you know, implementation versus say like a fairly accurate boardwalk like like like automaton. Like I don't know.

Baba: I think I think if you go to the automaton, right? You are the reader. If you go to an astrologer, the astrologer is the reader. If the astrologer is. Program or an AI. I guess it depends. So the question is does the human being involved matter or these things just tell us things? I probably wouldn't lean in the personal and probably lean in the first direction. I think we attribute meaning to things and yeah, and you'll have I mean, you'll have astrologers that will disagree. On things, you know, so it's so I think it's not an open and shut thing. A lot of it a lot of it is like kind of now could there be an AI that could kind of you plug in some kind of personality that has a tendency in one direction or another? Yeah, why not? But yeah, but would it yeah, like would it deliver accurate readings?

Danny C: I still think it's just the idea this so there's a alleged known phenomenon where people get phone calls from the other side. Allegedly. Okay, and again, this you know, for this example, you have to assume that the people telling the stories they're being truthful. Okay, right. You know, it could be a landline and you know, they receive a phone call and they recognize the voice. It's all staticky. You know, it's very common or people get a message on their answering machine, answering machine, voicemail, whatever and it's clearly the person. It was clearly, you know, they've they said it was after the person died or whatever. They go to play it back a second time and it's gone, you know, they get text messages from loved ones that have passed on and then you know, they go to check the message again and it's gone or or something like that. And it's a phenomenon seemingly that like this happens and and I heard someone talking about this and they're saying like, you know, if as again, assuming you believe that there are external forces, spirits, whatever affecting the physical world, then it stands to reason they could probably also affect it at an electronic level or molecular level or something like that. I can alter current. They can alter voltage that sort of thing. So going back to what we're saying about, you know, the digital tower readings or a system that reads astrology charts and comes up with answers for you. You could stand to reason that like you could still if you believe that there are external forces providing the answers they could technically still be providing the answers by manipulating things at a subatomic level or whatever. Sure. Interesting thought.

Baba: Yeah. Yeah, I mean, and that's like oftentimes in in a para psychological studies investigations, etc. You'll have the random number generator as a factor and it should be generating random numbers and yet when weird stuff happens, it's not so random anymore. And so yeah, I mean there's there's definitely that I think it probably could I think I'm I personally am just biased because I I just I don't like the digital end of it. But yeah, I mean, yeah,

WDG: just as a sketch of the so what if like talking about your like and you said like probably because it's the person but you're saying like okay, well, it's your stage of mind if you decide to go for a walk in this is a little oracle thing. So if you go to one of the old fortune telling machines and you decide that at this point you're in this, you know, this is meaningful because there is like a creepiness to it. They're like if you're making that like the theater of the mind, right, you know, it's like already already like in that yeah, the state now, is that the case then like the where technology could be being used for that thing, but you're the one I guess dictating right but the space is is the you know, yeah, like, you know, yeah versus the machine itself like doing the like, I

Baba: think all of these wind up being questions about metaphysics and what I mean by that is how you think the world out there works and how you think this stuff works. So if we are animals merely animals, we have no access to anything outside of our sensory experience. We don't the telepathy isn't real. None of this stuff is real. It's just Rorschach stuff. That's going to give you a totally different read than at the other end that their spirits physically manipulating cards, runes, electric current or whatever and there's a lot of space in between. They're like that and that's kind of a that's part of the problem when it comes to talking about this is like, well, there are lots of mechanisms for how it might be able to work. So depending on which of those metaphysical models you choose to operate in is going to decide like what it is that makes that fortune telling machine do what it does.

Danny C: So fortune tellers, how do we want to how do you want to break these?

Baba: I don't know. I don't know how to monster this.

WDG: Maybe maybe this is the thing but about about this kind of idea like let's just let's just take the maybe let's just take the it's real. It's not real off the table. Let's just say like and let's like and maybe also let's take the the like con artist bit off the table to somebody that can access and tell you the future. Is that something you want to have because what does that mean? Like do you like do we want the do we want bad news about the future? Do we want good news about the way like like to me do you is that something that's scary or comforting or good or like it or just like a monster like that's it's like maybe that's a better way to phrase it because then it takes the debate of of some of it out of the question. I don't know. Does that make sense? Like is that something we want like the like you're saying like the Macbeth issue of you know, what do we want that like the access to that information is that like however it comes if there's a person channeling it or however it is like that might be the way to go.

Baba: So so like so complicated because it's kind of like okay. So if you have this fixed future universe. That the future is knowable in a fixed way then the decisions you make are historically inevitable.

WDG: Did so the going to the fortune teller is historically inevitable that they would tell you the thing and you would do something about it.

Baba: Yeah, I believe it or not. You do so that you'd be locked into that Macbeth cycle like determinism kind of yeah, if it's if it's not a fixed future and you're you're getting information. If it's not a fixed future, I think whether it is a fixed future or whether it's not a fixed future. I don't think either of those things are scary. I think you should act as though it's a not fixed future and that it can give you some information and you still have freedom to act. So so I don't think it's very scary. I also don't think it's scary if they're I mean, but we've been talking about cards and stuff a lot, but I don't even think it's scary if they're talking to the dead. I just I think it's all cool. I'm going to give it. I'm going to give it one monster. Because I don't know. I think that's where the scale starts, right? I've never given something zero monsters. I think I'll give it one monster because like there is I guess the possibility that on some level it could turn out to be a really freaky science or something like that. So I'll give it one monster other than that. I just love this stuff. I think it's great. And and I think

WDG: I guess we never really like to find like the thing of the scale. I mean you could give it five monsters because you think it's great. You know, like that's kind of how I was reading like if I go back to like our headless horseman episode. I find that particularly scary and stuff like that.

Baba: I think we need to stick a pin in this because I have to go soon.

Danny C: Yeah, like yeah, let me let me I think one is more accurate because if we start comparing monsters long term.

WDG: So then yeah, so I'm just like it's like saying to figure out how to do this. It's such a weird thing to define. Yeah, so

Danny C: I'll keep the short since that you got to go soon. I pretty much agree with everything you're saying. I will add to that. If oh shoot, what was I gonna say? What was your question? The one that you framed it because that's what I want to tackle.

WDG: Oh, just like, you know, would you if you want to access like knowledge? Yeah, that's it got it got it like 100%

Danny C: because I feel like regardless of what that outcome is that could give you information that you could give to other people that it might make a difference. So for instance, you know, a lot of my you know, finances passwords accounts all that is in order to an extent. But if I knew I were going to die tomorrow, I might take some little extra steps to make sure the right people had access to that information that the right people have access to it now, but I might think it's a little bit more care just to make sure so regardless of what the outcome was. I would definitely be interested in information from the future. I think there's something that no matter what it is, no matter what the content is. I think only positive things could be gained from that. I also would give it one monster.

WDG: Yeah, I'm going to give it to because I always think like treading on like weird things with like certainty and uncertainty and like, you know, that kind of like, you know, misses and because it's like it is supposed to be couched in something kind of like spooky to some degree because that's what makes it interesting, right? That's what makes you listen up, right? Like that's like the kind of like and pay attention. I mean, Chris, you don't think that necessarily obviously like it's like, but that's what I don't think you occupy like a normal like the COVID like everyday experience. Like I even think like yes, the creepy like automaton things are weird to get like it's supposed to be couched like it is kind of element of creepiness. So I just want to give it like so I'll give a little extra just for that. I don't think there's anything like particularly wrong with doing it at all. But like yeah, like but the knowing the say if you kind of like know the future or an outcome and then make it just even make a different decision, which would often forget about the determinism parts. It's like it still would be kind of creepy like, you know, to be like don't get on the plane. It's gonna explode and then the plane does explode. That would be creepy. I would I would be freaked out definitely so creepy. So I'll give it at least a two monsters just for the like there should be some creepy element to like someone telling you the future and something weird happened.

Baba: That's not so scared. Well, I did, you know compared to previous things. We yeah, it's not that scary.

Danny C: add to that. You know what is scary? Darkened theaters and Mcbeth.