Are Ghosts Real? What's REALLY Happening?

Watch/Listen to this Episode Are Ghosts Real? What's REALLY Happening? License Info Are Ghosts Real? What's REALLY Happening? Transcription Are Ghosts Real? What's REALLY Happening?

Introduction: The Mystery of Ghosts

Ghosts have fascinated humanity for centuries, appearing in folklore, literature, and personal experiences across cultures. In this episode of the Wondering Monsters Podcast, the hosts explore a central question: are ghosts real, or are they the result of perception, psychology, or misunderstood natural phenomena? The conversation blends storytelling with skepticism, examining different types of hauntings, famous cases, and the limitations of science when it comes to understanding the unknown.

Types of Ghosts and Hauntings

The discussion begins by breaking down the different categories of ghostly phenomena. One of the most common distinctions is between residual hauntings and intelligent hauntings. Residual hauntings are described as recordings of past events that replay under certain conditions, while intelligent hauntings suggest an awareness or ability to interact with the living. Additional classifications include poltergeists, which are often associated with physical disturbances like moving objects, and entities such as banshees, which may not fit neatly into the category of human spirits at all. This raises an important question: are all hauntings caused by the dead, or could some originate from entirely different types of entities?

A Unique Ghost Story: The Living Haunting

One particularly intriguing story challenges the assumption that ghosts must be dead. In this case, recurring sounds of a couple were heard at the same time each night in a home. Upon investigation, it was discovered that the individuals associated with the sounds were still alive. This example introduces the idea that some hauntings may function more like environmental recordings than spiritual presences. It also opens the door to unconventional theories, such as people unintentionally “haunting” spaces through repeated behaviors or emotional imprints.

Poltergeists and Psychokinesis

Poltergeist phenomena add another layer of complexity. Unlike traditional ghost stories, poltergeists often involve physical interactions such as objects moving or unexplained noises. Some researchers suggest these events may not involve spirits at all, but rather psychokinesis—energy generated by living individuals, particularly during periods of emotional stress. This theory challenges the idea that all paranormal activity originates from external entities. Instead, it proposes that human consciousness itself might play a role in creating these experiences.

Famous Cases: The Bell Witch

The episode also explores well-known historical cases, including the Bell Witch haunting in Tennessee. This case involved multiple witnesses who reported auditory disturbances, physical interactions, and even a disembodied voice that mocked and harassed the Bell family. According to legend, the entity claimed responsibility for the death of John Bell and continued to manifest during his funeral. The sheer number of witnesses and the dramatic nature of the events make this case one of the most compelling—and controversial—in paranormal history.

Seeing vs. Hearing: The Spectrum of Experiences

Ghost encounters vary widely. Some people report hearing unexplained sounds, while others claim to see full-bodied apparitions. Interestingly, not everyone present during a haunting experiences the same phenomenon. One person might see a figure while another hears a something and others perceive nothing at all. This inconsistency raises questions about perception and consciousness. Are these experiences external events, or are they shaped by individual minds?

The Role of Consciousness

A recurring theme in the discussion is the role of human consciousness. The hosts question whether hauntings are purely external phenomena or if they involve an interaction between the observer and their environment. They highlight the limitations of human senses, noting that perception is often unreliable. As one idea suggests, the map is not the territory, meaning our understanding of reality may be incomplete or distorted. This perspective challenges the assumption that scientific tools alone can fully explain paranormal experiences.

Ghost Hunting and Technology

Modern ghost hunting relies heavily on technology, including electromagnetic field detectors and audio recording devices used to capture electronic voice phenomena (EVP). However, the hosts express skepticism about these tools, pointing out that their results can be inconsistent and easily influenced. They also note that as technology advances, it becomes increasingly difficult to distinguish genuine evidence from fabricated or manipulated data. This complicates efforts to scientifically validate paranormal claims.

Personal Experiences and Environmental Factors

The episode includes personal accounts of unexplained occurrences, such as hearing voices in unexpected ways or seeing movement out of the corner of one's eye. These experiences often happen in environments with unusual acoustics or lighting, suggesting that physical surroundings may contribute to perceived hauntings. At the same time, shared experiences between multiple individuals add another layer of mystery, making it difficult to dismiss all encounters as purely psychological.

Cultural Universality of Ghosts

One of the most compelling aspects of ghost phenomena is their presence across cultures and throughout history. From ancient epics to modern stories, accounts of spirits and hauntings appear in nearly every society. This universality suggests that ghost experiences may be rooted in fundamental aspects of human psychology—or that they point to something deeper that transcends cultural boundaries.

Are Ghosts Real?

Ultimately, the episode does not provide a definitive answer. Instead, it presents a range of possibilities, from psychological explanations to supernatural theories. The hosts acknowledge that while some cases may be hoaxes or misinterpretations, others remain difficult to explain. What becomes clear is that the question of ghosts is not just about proving their existence, but about understanding perception, belief, and the nature of reality itself.

Conclusion: Fascination Over Fear

While ghost stories can be frightening, the hosts ultimately view them as fascinating rather than terrifying. Whether ghosts are real entities, manifestations of the mind, or something in between, they continue to capture human imagination. As the discussion concludes, one idea stands out: the mystery of ghosts may be less about the dead and more about the living—how we perceive, interpret, and make sense of the unknown.

Links from the Show

• Curses, Haunted Dolls, and Cursed Treasure
• Nessie Cryptid History: The Truth Behind the Loch Ness Monster
• Bigfoot, Sasquatch, and the Wild Man Tradition
• Are Theaters REALLY Haunted Places?
• The History of the Boogeyman
• The Legend of the Headless Horseman and Sleepy Hollow
• Is Bloody Mary Real?
• Are Ouija Boards Real?

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Licensing Information

• Title: Entry of the Gladiators
• Composer: Julius Fučík
• Library of Congress (Public Domain)
• Podcast theme song version edited/arranged/mixed by Dan Swift

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Transcription

*Transcription was automatically generated and may contain errors.

(Music)

Baba: Hello friends. Those that are physically with us and those that might be otherwise. And those listening at home. Hello or wherever you listen from. Hello.

Danny C: So let's talk ghosts. Let's talk ghosts. I feel like so many other episodes we've kind of touched on ghosts. You know the haunted theater we talked about ghosts a little bit. Sleepy hollow. Sleepy hollow a little bit. We talked about ghost rules which affects ghosts. I did do a little bit of behind the scenes research before we started. Not too much because this is me we're talking about. But- You have to, I have to. But one thing I'm sure we all will talk about at some point is residual hauntings versus like intelligent hauntings. That has to be mentioned. Obviously we're going to see if ghosts are real. We're going to solve that one today, friends. We're going to solve it. Solving it forever. (Applause)

WDG: We always reach conclusions. And actionable ones at that too.

Danny C: Let's start with, there are different subdivisions of ghosts. You have like Banshees, you have Poltergeist, stuff like that. I don't know how in depth we want to get this time. I guess we'll just kind of see where the road takes us. But I want to start with this story. This was really cool. When I was in college, I was on my way to work one day. I had a work study program and I was working in the evening. And it was right on Halloween. And there was a person there presenting. I can't remember if they were an author, if they were a ghost hunter. I can't remember what this person's role was. But she was telling-- and I stopped in on my way to work. I kind of detoured in there and then went to work. And this woman was talking about this particular ghost story. And it goes something like this. This is like 20 years ago. So my memory is a little foggy, but it goes something like this. There was this haunted house, haunted room. And I can't remember how often the haunting occurred, if it was on the weekly, once a month, daily, here and there. I don't remember. But it was always at the same time of day. It was always like 2.30 in the morning or something like that. And it was the sound of two adults engaging in some fun activities. And this happened over and over and over again. The woman decides to find out what is the history behind this house? What is going on? And finds out that the people that used to live there, I think that one of the people would work until the wee hours of the morning. They would come home. They would do their thing. And that would be that. And here's the kicker. The couple is still alive. So this is like a really-- Yeah, yeah. This is my first-- This is my first exposure to like a haunting, quote unquote, a haunting, where the people were still alive. I'd never heard of that before.

Baba: OK, so that's really interesting. Because when I was thinking about this, what is a ghost? And I thought, well, there's a difference between a spirit maybe and a ghost. There seems to be a difference between a demon and a ghost. And the difference seems to be that ghosts are dead. They were alive-- see, this is all right. They were alive once. And now they're dead. And then there are apparitions or some kind of references to them. And we call that reference a ghost, whether that is a person in the kitchen making, you know, what was it, the class five full rowing-- full of torso-rubbing vapor? Something like that.

WDG: Two sliver. One real quick question is, Dan, you said that it was just sound. This wasn't something she couldn't see anything.

Danny C: It was just-- it was an auditory-- If I remember correctly, the person would eventually go to investigate to see where's the noise coming from? Is it a neighbor? Is it, you know? And it goes to the room where it was coming from. And if I remember right once they would open the door or have the opportunity to see something, all the sound would stop. And that seems to be very common in stories, that you hear something, you go to investigate, and then all of a sudden it just stops.

WDG: That's interesting, because the priestess are like, I think this might be where you were going with this-- was the like-- there's like noise stuff, right? Like you hear something. It's like-- then there's like visual stuff. Like people see a figure. Like when we were talking about the theater haunting, like they saw like a guy or the one haunting in like early haunted houses, like, oh, you see a person kind of doing something over and over again. They're not like-- they were saying in the kitchen, you know, making something or whatever. Or there's some visual stuff, but it's not like you don't see a person or something moves, right? So that's like poltergeisty. And then there's like full on like, want to communicate or something like that. Right? Like it has interactivity as opposed to like recording. There's these multiple, you know, such things and, you know, like that are different, but they're like not necessarily dead people. And some of them are and some of them aren't like, you know, it's like--

Baba: Like I would have been under the assumption before you tell that story that it is pretty much going to be dead people. But there's something interesting in this apartment that I'll get to. But so so like the-- but that idea of OK, so yeah, so you've got Dan, I think you called them intelligent hauntings and recursive hauntings. Residual. Residual hauntings. Yeah. And so like the idea of like, yeah, like some event took place, a high emotion event like that. And and it gets recorded on the environment or the environment special and records things that just happened there. Something about the environment does that. Or the intelligent-- But a spirit of some restless dead is wandering around here or a spirit that thinks they're still alive doing their thing. But you can interact with it. And then, of course, poltergeist. Poltergeist are interesting because like we tend to assume well, there is there's a ghost behind it. There's a spirit of a dead person behind it. And actually, a lot of the times that doesn't seem to really enter into it. Like it's something's going on. There might be a story of something that happened in that place. But usually you have a teenager, often a girl, entering puberty. And it's like a so what some researchers have suggested is that what we call poltergeists is actually a psychokinetic event. Like somebody's using a psychokinetic, telekinetic powers. And that's like the idea of like being able to move something with your mind. That's what we would call like telekinesis, telekinesis. And then any kind of thing out there is in the general category of psychokinesis. The idea of causing something to materialize or we have the idea of ectoplasm. One thing would be-- Is that real?

WDG: Yeah. It would be like-- I thought that was just a movie thing.

Baba: No, no, that's not just Ghostbusters. That was an actual thing that was being investigated. And this stuff that would happen during-- largely during spiritualist siances.

Danny C: Yeah, I was going to say siances. I think like the 1900s, late 1800s, if I remember right. Yeah.

Baba: But it's not generally like, oh, and yeah, this is a haunting cause there's ectoplasm. It's like, well, no, no, no, no, there's particular things that seem-- Someone just had

WDG: a big sneeze. I'll

Baba: stay off the Ghostbusters line. But this kind of idea of like, well, that doesn't even seem to be a dead person. Except then you've got things like the Enfield poltergeist. And the Enfield poltergeist is one of those really interesting cases where you've got multiple witnesses. The first witnesses were law enforcement, witnessed a heavy chair pushed across the room by nobody. And it's cops. Again, like, I don't imagine there are a lot of police officers that watch this. But do you think it would make you more popular with your fellow officers if you were talking about this stuff all the time? You know, I don't think so. I just tend not to think that. And that lends some kind of credibility to it. But here's the thing about the dead person. There is a young girl, I'm going to say she's like 11 or something like that. And she speaks in a gravelly voice of an old man that claims to be the dead spirit of a person that used to live there. That's uncommon in poltergeist stories, you know, so it's so it's interesting when that actually happens to be the case. But a lot of these things fall into this category of where it's hard to dispute whether the person whether people are doing it, I don't just mean fakery, whether people are doing it or whether something else is doing it. Because when it comes down to it, like the notion of like super sigh, you know, like kind of like I manifest an apparition with something like that, like psychokinesis or something, particularly when you've got these things where you've got multiple witnesses, you need some kind of explanation. If they're not just making it up, what's the explanation? One extreme, it's like, well, there's a ghost. And that the other and somewhere in between there's, well, people are getting like freaked out and they're putting something out there using what artists call psychic capacities, like psychokinesis or something like that, or somehow they are putting that out there and it's them that's doing it's not a ghost. It's not the house. But then it's like there are things that just don't fall into that category either.

WDG: Then when you have banshees, right? And so there's like the whole like banshee women and white that people see usually like near bridges or near things. And that's often gets associated with like, oh, it's a ghost. It's someone that died or something. Or the banshee is like a purportant of, you know, something bad is going to happen. Yeah. Or like a curt or something. But then you almost see more like something else. Like it's like, yes, it's almost like it's a haunted thing. Like people see this woman in white near this bridge, but it doesn't necessarily, but then it's like no one really died there. There was no woman in, you know, it just like happens to me a thing that a phenomenon and it's more like that feels like that's more in a category of like a different creature altogether, similar to things like we've talked about, like a Bigfoot, like some kind of entity that isn't like what we would categorize as like ghosts or haunting. Right.

Baba: But we also wouldn't necessarily categorize as a biological creature. Right, right.

WDG: Yeah, it's not like a cryptid necessarily, but it kind of feels like it's like sort of along those lines. There's also like the like Japanese like, like spirits that haunt things that like move into old houses like the different, you know, the dust bite, you know, things I think became kind of famous from like to turn to row, you know, and it's like, you know, like little like or they get a dust. Like it was like, but they're like, and it's like when houses are abandoned, like these spirits move in and haunt them, but they're not like, but they're not ghosts. It's not like someone died in this house and now it was their house or someone lived in this house and it was their house. It's like these, these are creatures that actively seek out abandoned places to like take up residence in or something. They're not ghosts.

Baba: Yeah. So they're like, yeah, it's like this non-physical entity. I'm just saying non-physical. I mean, who knows? Maybe they go somewhere and it's a very physical way.

WDG: Something defined in a different way. Yeah.

Baba: And so it's some kind of non-physical or spiritual kind of entity that isn't a ghost, but that still will do ghosty things. And so that's the thing where it's like, it's kind of like, okay, so like we talked about like Bigfoot, a lot of times Bigfoot acts more like a ghost. I don't necessarily mean at one point, big, big feet, big foots, you know, we're wandering the planet and then like they all died and now their ghosts show up in different places. It's like, well, that's not really what I mean. Like it's, it's kind of like it's something that's not a creature, but it, and yet that's very different than what we usually think of when we think of ghosts. One of the common things, and this is like a, I mean, I guess this, a lot of it still could be covered by super-sci, but like the notion of like somebody dies and a person wakes up somewhere, a living person wakes up somewhere and the person who died appears to that person who does not yet know that that person died. And then later on they discovered that in fact they did die.

Danny C: Is that, is that the same thing as, I want to say it's like a third person syndrome or something like that. Does that sound familiar to anyone?

Baba: I don't know. I heard it referred to as being a, a crisis haunting or something to that effect.

WDG: Let me see. You're talking about like they appear to them actually versus like in a dream or something like that.

Baba: No, I think like as an apparition in their bedroom or something.

WDG: Basically like the Hamlet, like, you know, like it's like, you're the ghost of your father or your uncle killed me.

Baba: Yeah. Yeah.

Danny C: That kind of thing. So the third, it's called the third man syndrome. It's slightly different. It's when you're in, person A is in like crisis, like life-threatening situation. And while they're still alive, they appear to person B or something like that. Okay. So it's slightly different, but a similar kind of.

Baba: Yeah. The common pattern is standing at the foot of the bed, saying goodbye and appearing in vivid form. That can be chills just to move. That's cold here too.

Danny C: So, you know, so that's the other thing, like based on stories that I've heard, you know, a lot of times we think about ghosts being semi-transparent. So is that even a word? Is that redundant? Semi-transparent? They're being transparent. You know, we're translucent. They were true. Yeah. Yeah. Translucent. But people will also say times where it's like they look just as real as you and me, like you get this weird spectrum, I suppose like a spectrum, you know, of the solidness of the person, which is really interesting as well.

WDG: Yeah. Yeah. I've heard it's definitely people tell like stories of like, there's like a place like where they used to see like, they'll see a person say like in a store or something like that. And they'll be like, try to like a place where they would often have gone, you know, like they'll follow them and then they're gone. You know, it's like, like, so it's like things like that, you know, which is like weird, like, you know, in sense of like, well, are they the only ones seeing them or they, you know, it's like, it's like, they're not necessarily haunting it, but it's like somebody like, but like you were saying, like people like family members or things like that type of thing. He's usually like something or somebody you were close to type of idea. Yeah.

Danny C: Well, going along with that, I've heard other stories where you'll have a group, we'll say like three people. Okay. And one person will see something and the other people don't see anything at all.

Baba: Or maybe like about that.

Danny C: Yeah. Or maybe they'll see them, but like the other person will just hear them instead. Like you, they don't get the same experience all the time with their modal people, which is very interesting.

Baba: Yeah. Yeah. And then it's a, I mean, a lot of, a lot of the problem of all of this comes back to the problem of consciousness and what the heck it is. Like because, so there are many tales of multiple people witnessing a haunting at the same time. It's not satisfying to say it's like a group hallucination because like you can, you try to have a group hallucination even with help from molecular friends. And like, you're often not going to see the same kind of thing. It's not going to be the same kind of experience. So like why, you know, it's like, oh yeah, no, there's that. Oh, look at that. And then they get there and there's nothing or whatever.

WDG: Well, it's like the, just the, what's interesting about like just generally like the ghost type of story, like you're, you know, whether it's like a haunting or seeing like somebody you knew who was a spirit or seeing a spirit, like, like, you know, malevolent or friendly kind of thing. It's like, it's, goes past like cultural boundaries. Like it does seem to be like a very cross cultural thing. And then like, and to the point, it's like one of the oldest like writing like tropes, you know, it's like, maybe like it's in like the Epic of Gilgamesh, like, you know, I think, I think in Kidu comes back from the, from the, they, it's in like the Odyssey, like, you know, there's things like, there's, there's definitely like the whole like spirit, like, I mean, and then obviously in just in all sorts of folk tales of like spirits coming from the underworld or things like that. But, you know, it's like, I guess I kind of like, so that's, that's what one of the things versus like a lot of like other things like certain cryptids or certain types of things, you know, it's like there's the, or specific types of like, you know, I guess, like supernatural beings that are cultural to a place, like ghosts are just like a thing, like everybody has in their thing, has some type of ritual around it, you know, probably we have like death, Richard death, rights and death ritual things. And it has a lot of similar things. And the fact is, like, we've been writing about these things for and probably before that, making telling stories about it for, you know, since like early, some of the earliest forms of storytelling, you know, so it's like, yeah, it's kind of neat in that sense.

Baba: Some of these things are just kind of like hard to hard to shake off. And like, particularly like these ones with like lots of witnesses. Here's this crazy story of the John Bell in Tennessee. This is the story of the Bell Witch. This is a good one. This is a good one. OK, so this guy, so he's haunted and tormented for three years from 1817 to 1821. Disturbances begin after he encounters a strange animal with the head of a rabbit and the body of a dog in his cornfield. OK, probably not the Jackalope. That's not described as having the body.

WDG: Yeah, I think the Jackalope has some horns, doesn't it? I think it does.

Baba: Yeah, I think it has horns.

WDG: It does have horns. Exactly. Jackrabbit.

Baba: Yeah, the horns are very valuable. And then his family gets plagued by this auditory phenomenon, gnawing sounds on the bedpost, knocking on walls, things pulling blankets off of beds. It's not like a lot of poltergeisty type stuff and a voice that develops, initially whispering hymns and later speaking clearly to quote scripture repeat sermons and to insult John Bell. Like it does not like John Bell, the one that encountered the. The the ragged, the dog rabbit.

Danny C: Before you go on with the story, was John Bell any anything of interest? Was he just a farmer? What what was he? I'm trying to like him. Why is he getting to do something bad?

WDG: Was he like that the ghosts were after we find out the dog rabbit like was a.

Danny C: How about you continue with the story? I'll check that real quick.

Baba: All right. So. All right. So this you got this bell with so eventually what winds up happening is he he gets poisoned and dies. So the bell which entity is known as Kate. Sweet.

WDG: So we see as the is the story that coming from somebody else that wasn't his account like.

Baba: Yeah, because the family was with him. So so yes, so the family was experiencing all of this. And apparently they must have said to

WDG: get set up, they probably poison.

Baba: Well, it gets better then because you're going to have to account for this next part. OK. OK, so so he he's poisoned. He dies. OK. And then according to legend, the entity known as Kate provided a final mocking display during his funeral. The the service was one of the largest attended services in the history of Robertson County, Tennessee. Hundreds of people from miles away came. The entity crashed the ceremony, interrupting the three presiding preachers, two Methodists and one Baptist, for for note, was heard singing cheerful body drinking songs of an inappropriate type, especially one about a bottle of brandy witnessed by many people. Witnesses report hearing the entity laugh and shout insults throughout the proceedings, continuing its taunts until the last mourner left the graveyard. And right before the funeral, the entity gleefully takes credit for his death, declaring to his family that it had fixed him with a big dose of this mysterious black liquid found by his bedside. So the so this is the story of but it's witnessed by lots of people.

WDG: So it's just like a sound, but it's like it's like there was no apparition. It was like it was a sound ghost. Right.

Baba: There was it was apparition, not apparition. It was auditory phenomena and whole three guys. But no, no apparition unless you consider the thing he saw in his field. You have been something like that. Creepy, because it goes under that thing of like, OK, well, we know like about like. OK, so let's let's say. It was OK, so if it was super psi, it wasn't caused by him. Because it or it continued being caused by him after he was dead, which doesn't really make the super psi explanation anymore satisfying. Then ghosts can do that, too. So then there's like the idea of like, well, was it the encounter with this thing? Like, what was that? Was that just a ghost? Was it unrelated?

WDG: Yeah, was it just this? Sounds like a coyote or some weird kind of vengeful spirit. You know, it's like, yeah, yeah, the crow situation. So come back and kill, kill people that have wronged you. Yeah.

Baba: People once believe that when a person was wrongingly killed, their soul would be carried to the land of the dead by a dog with a rabbit. Rabbit. They come back and carry it in its cavity teeth. Yeah. You had to pay the rabbit with carrots, carrots over your eyes to be carried. Yeah. Anyway, just a weird story, a really weird story. And when you've got these things with like lots of witnesses, it's like, well. OK, like, did none of those witnesses really have it? Now, there were other figures and things that were said to experience the haunting of, I guess, the location. Andrew Jackson. Sorry, my feelings about Andrew Jackson. Visited the farm in 1819 to investigate, and it was said that his wagon was stopped by an unseen force.

WDG: Which he might just have had people haunting him for like, you know, I don't know all of the awful things.

Baba: He was just a host of demons. I don't think there was anything in there, but demons. Yeah, I mean, like I know. Descendants of Andrew Jackson, who I'm also now skeptical of. But yeah, yeah, so that so I guess it still seems to I don't know if it still haunts the place. There are tours of the the historic Bellwitch Cave, which is listed on the National Register of Historic Places. So if you live in Tennessee or you're there for some other reason, this could also be a reason. And if you're there for a different reason, you could just claim this was the reason if what you're up to is sketchy or sketchy or then then visiting. These kinds of things.

Danny C: So talking about ghost tours, I mean, that brings up a whole other topics. I was on this as on a ghost tour when I was in Gettysburg, you know, back in January. And as part of the tour, we got to use different ghost hunting equipment, which is which is pretty cool, I guess. I mean, I was not super interested in that part of it. I just wanted to go and like hear the stories and whatever. Yeah. Not necessarily carry around equipment. But there is there's the whole there's a whole skeptical side of that. You know, what is that equipment really doing? And realistically, you know, it can probably be programmed to do anything, you know, not just to measure like electromagnetic fields. For instance, it might also if someone were were if they wanted to, they could program in such a way that it has anomalies built into it or something like that.

Baba: Yeah, which gets into a really interesting and problematic area for this. All right. So one of the classic, classic hauntings is known as the brown lady of Raina, Raina Hall, that's Rain Ham Hall, Rain Ham Hall. OK, and the ghost is said to be of Lady Dorothy Walpaw, allegedly imprisoned by her husband in the 1700s. But there's a photograph of it. And it was a respected photographer, a guy named Hubert C. Provand captures an image coming down the stairs of this ghostly kind of woman. Now, it's that it's pre obviously this is in the 1930s, it's pre. Computers is pre Photoshop is pre all that. Maybe a double exposure, but again, it's the this guy's a reputed, reputed, reputed photographer. And and so but it's an interesting kind of thing of it's not so much the question of is this the real ghost? OK, you go, we can go back and forth on it. So much as how much is evidence really going to matter going forward unless it's like physically storable evidence because like what can't be faked right now, you know, we're in this stupid era of A.I. I guess it's I don't know, not going to end or whatever.

WDG: But what can't be faked or like a lot like bald face easily fact checkable lies and people are like, yeah, that sounds great. So yeah, yeah, it's like forget about having equipment. We can't even like normal stuff. Yeah, yeah, we can.

Baba: Yeah. Well, and so that's the thing. So how like is the sweet spot over for investigating this stuff? Like now that because well, what's going to be on the other side of it? Like somebody's going to. OK, so let's just very briefly on this, like let's say, OK, so something is invented that can definitively it's the touring tester. They can definitively tell if it's if it's A.I. or a person or whatever that is or if it's A.I. messed with. Right. But then OK, but then do you trust that thing? Because now you're just it's just kind of kicking the thing down the road. It's like no longer just I mean, like there are people that were probably skeptical of tech. I mean, of any technology that emerges, right? There's a weird thing talking about technology and I'll just like sort of like retract my question and go back. There's this thing called Ghost Tube. If I didn't spill tea all over my government surveillance device earlier, I'd pull it up and show you, but it's called Ghost Tube. And it's a it's it's like the the poor person's ghost hunting app. And I guess it's supposed to I guess probably check for changes in temperature or in in signals like radio type signals and things like that. And it's you ask things questions and like Ouija board style. I think it's supposed to like give you answers. So you go to different haunted locations and see what happens. Now, presumably you could go to locations that are not claimed to be haunted at all and sort of test against those things. Maybe you could even tell people that places were haunted and send them there with it and see what happens. You know, if you want to mess around with this and just see what happens.

WDG: But yeah, it's weird, though, is like the fact that like just even just when you do a cursory stuff, like the ghost stuff is not consistent. Like in a sense at all like that, like we're pulling threads right together like going, oh, well, this is the but like like the fact it's like, oh, you can be a haunting from someone that still alive or it's like an actual thing pushing people around and making noises. It's like I'm talking to people. It's a person you can see like in a place. And walking around and doing stuff, acting either other volition or acting like a recording is like like then how would it like any of this testing stuff be at all consistent as well? Like, I mean, the fact is like you're testing stuff that seems to be like fairly inconsistent in and of itself, like a room of people. And some people see it. Some people don't. They're staring at the same thing like you were like, Dan, you were saying. It's like it just feels like, well, does that be like what? How do we know like, you know. It's like, well, sometimes it gets cold, but then I guess sometimes it probably doesn't or sometimes there's an electromagnetic thing, but maybe there isn't. It's like so what's the point of this?

Baba: I know. Yeah, like sometimes shows up on camera. Yeah. Right. But then like how can it show up on camera if it can also disappear or not get affected by bullets in any way or like it's like this kind of like what the heck is going on?

WDG: But it also just feels like there's like a like a sense of like since the phenomena is so inconsistent, having some kind of idea of there being reliable equipment to diagnose, it seems kind of like a little silly in a sense. You know, it's like it's just like because you're really just like making a guess. Right. And what if I what if I go to a place and I grab all of this stuff and I check the temperature dropped and oh, there's electromagnetic stuff. And oh, but nothing's happening. But I get all the indications of there being something there. But this was like this, so hard. There's no it just like it just happens to be like the room is cold because the AC kicked off or I live in a place that gets your high tension wires or something and get weird. I like like this, like, you know, like fake kind of bunch of stuff. It just feels like I don't know. The equipment thing always seems weird. It's like I guess it's like kind of like it doesn't seem to be very reliable. Like instances of this that are easily like, you know, repeatable. So why would equipment like work, you know, to pick it up? You know, right. What if the ghost just messing with the equipment like the computers? You know, like there's not any like electronic voice phenomena.

Baba: Yeah, you know, EVP. Um. How does that work? I mean, OK, so one explanation is it's completely fake.

Danny C: So for anyone that might not be familiar with it just real quick, EVP, what is it?

Baba: So EVP is a it's called electronic voice phenomena and people will use a recording device. It started with, I guess, just magnetic tape like a cassette tape. And they would basically they'll ask questions out loud to an entity or something that's presumed to be there. They'll play back the tape and then there will be voices on the tape that were not there. That's the basic version of it. That's the and then there are all kinds of people that debate. As they do, whether it's real or fake or if it's what's that? Para Delia like there's a like an like an auditory version of just like kind of just projecting something on there. You want to be there, you know.

WDG: You hear like static noise going like from something and you're like, oh, it's going it's saying a thing. You know, yeah.

Baba: And and and again, it's kind of like, OK, well, we're looking at what we're calling the evidence and we're saying it's a thing or it's not a thing. There might be an issue with the just the. Scientific exploration of a lot of these things, and I know that's going to rub people the wrong way because we have this idea. That science tells us the truth about the world. Because the five human senses, for whatever reason, are the ones that can completely and perfectly perceive reality. Which doesn't even pass any test. The senses always deceive us. You can look at train tracks in the distance in the future. If trains don't exist anymore, they run on these things called tracks. And in the distance, two parallel lines would seem to converge, but they don't. People seem to get smaller as they walk away, but they don't usually. Our senses deceive us all the time and they're all relative to our position in the world. Like I have a desk here that used to be softer because I had a gamer's mousepad on it till I spilled tea all over it. And now it's kind of hard, but it's hard because my my my fleshy body is a certain density relative to it. If my hand was made of diamond. I don't know, I'm trying to get a lab somewhere, but my hand were made of diamond. This wouldn't feel hard. I'd be able to go right into it, you know. So is it hard or not? Is it solid or not? You know, it's all relative to your position in this thing.

WDG: So well, I mean, like also, too, there's a sense where it's like, and I think we touched on this a little bit when we did the theater. How much also can you like prime the pump to get people to experience a thing if you're told something is haunted and say you're not a skeptical person, you know. So and you believe this to be the case. Like it's like you walk in there already expecting something weird. Right. Like you're on a ghost tour, right? And then you're someone that believes in ghosts. Like, yeah, flat out. Like, are you going to see something versus someone else? See, you know, I mean, how much is it just like just kind of like a little bit of a suggestion, you know, type of thing that goes on as well in addition to like, you know, aside from that.

Baba: Yeah. Like how much of this is about your consciousness and your experience? And how much of it is about something happening out there? So let's take it to Loch Ness for a minute. Let's assume that people are seeing something. Let's just because otherwise it's too messy. If we assume they're seeing something, either. It's something special about Loch Ness or something about that person. Right. Maybe there's some other thing I'm not picking up on here, but like. So the idea so is we talked about is staring out over a liminal space like Loch Ness going to cause some kind of a thing in consciousness such that it changes your perception and not not in an obvious way that you see freaking monsters, you know. Not in a mouse, kind of weird on my eyes, you know, or when you're in a house purported to be haunted and you're the only one there and you start hearing things. Is that about your consciousness? Is it about the place there or an interface between the two? Like are you does your consciousness shifting allow you to perceive something that's actually going on there? And maybe some other people are there and their consciousness didn't make that shift for whatever reason. I mean, but they were if they don't believe in it because they're scared of it. So their brain has a defense mechanism that prevents them from seeing it. I don't know. But what's unsatisfying about is people are like, well, that's not scientific. And I'm like, well, yeah, I mean, I'm not.

WDG: No, I'm saying I don't think you really approach this stuff like this because it's not like a like ever. If I told the story before, but I'll just like the recount, just because it gives a kind of true perspective. So apparently like my like grade school, high school, like especially the old building, like not more modern ones, but the really old building, which is like, you know, at this point, like never hundred and sixty, seventy years old, maybe more than that. Yeah. So it's like, whatever. At the time I was going there, it was around like 160 years old or so. The build up and the one section, which was like the sort of more run down section up in the like third floor, like that was only used for like part of it was kind of like storage section. And the other parts were like where we had to relegate like, you know, the independent art students. And like we also the photography lab was up there, you know, too. And it's like and it's in this thing. Supposedly that's like where like, you know, some of the hunting stuff happened. I spent a lot of time there like in both of those things. I did a lot of art focused stuff, especially like in high school. And I would often have times where I was up there by myself for a good couple hours, you know, like in either of the two places doing, you know, like whether I was in the photo lab, which is also dark because like the windows are boarded up and stuff because it's a photo lab. We were doing traditional like develop film photography, traditional development practices and stuff like that, like learn of that. And so it was like then the other thing was like just where the, you know, had like my art studio. And I was like only one of a couple students and we were all there at different times. I never had a problem. A couple years later, someone I knew also was up there. They said, oh, there's all this stuff that always happened. It was just a very terrible stuff. You know, people knocking me out of my chair or things like that. And I'm like, I spent so much time there and a lot of times by myself and I'm actually, it was one of my favorite places to be like an escape. The other annoying classes and things like that. I really liked it. And like, you know, the other watching might be just like people sneaking up there also to smoke, you know, like because like that's where people would go sometimes even the teachers that, you know. So it's just like there was not like a, it had like a like, oh yeah, like this thing. But it's like, but also do people just want to keep people out of there because that's like, you know, people want it to be left alone. Something but like, I don't know, I spent quite a bit of time there. Never had the experience. Seems like other people did have that experience. And I just find that like, I don't know, I didn't even have like the, oh, this is creepy or oh, it's like it chills. I've been this all, you know, it didn't, I didn't have any of that. And it's just like, so I don't know that whole like, and I still had the, I knew those places were supposedly haunted, but nothing, not even like a creek or something weird happened, just something weird. And it's like, I don't know, you think something would have happened if someone else had like this other, this experience that was seemingly interactive, you know, like getting knocked out of a chair and always hearing voices and like hearing cracklings and I don't know, it just seems like, yeah.

Baba: Like a pair of cops witnessing a heavy chair, jumped across the room. That's kind of interesting.

WDG: Yeah, yeah. I wonder like there's to some degree, there's also like, how primed are you to like be, you know, like, maybe even misinterpret like things like, you know, like just like maybe fell on the chair because you're clumsy. I don't know. Yeah, yeah.

Baba: Yeah, like human judgment is really weird. And we tend to, it's not clear to see what the divide, what the difference is between what one is projecting and what one is perceiving. And that's the problem is the map is not the territory and we might not know a damn thing about the territory. We think we do because it's convenient to think we do. Science gives us technology to do things, but it doesn't prove truth. That's my stance. It tells us how to do things. And if that were the case, you wouldn't have models of physics just displacing other models of physics entirely and not adding to them people. Relativity is not an addition to Newtonian physics. And so it's a totally different paradigm. So it's like, what kind of paradigm do we need in order to fit all of this in? And the paradigm could be, not that I think this is the one, that people are just idiots and they make things up and they lie about things and they want attention. Yeah, okay. That's one theory. I mean, there are so many questions, right? Like, do these phenomena happen at all? What's causing them? I think I'll weigh my monsters, I think.

Danny C: But before you do that, I want to hear the story that you teased at the very start.

Baba: Oh, yeah. Yeah. So this place, it's kind of a funny story, but it's a scary story. This place has really weird stuff going on, this apartment that I live in. Now, it's at a weird kind of intersection, like we're uphill from, there's this valley that goes down. We've got wind that hits the side of the building all the time. We've got, it's just in a weird zone, like how the roads intersect around it and stuff. So it's kind of just like an odd location for the apartment. But in the apartment, we, me and Sharon, will see things, will hear things. And so, the sound in this apartment does not function normally. Like, I'll be in a room right next to, like the living room in the kitchen or right next to each other. Sharon will be in the living room and saying something to me and I can't hear her.

Danny C: But she'll be, you can't understand her or you can't hear her. I can't hear her.

Baba: And then she'll be in an office that's further away and I can hear her. And it's like, it just doesn't make any sense. The lighting in here is really weird. It's just a very uncomfortable place in a lot of ways. But both of us, now I'm not prone to seeing spirits, despite what you might think of me going on about all this stuff. This isn't something that most of my life I've had experiences with. Until the last apartment we were in, after actually one of our cats died. And I would kind of like have this sense of like this, you know, now some people are like, "Oh, you just used to have the cat around, so you've got this residual sense." But so, in this apartment, I'll constantly see things out of the corner of my eye, hearing weird stuff. Like, it'll tend to pick up at different points and like Sharon will mention to me, she'll be like, "Yeah, I've been seeing a lot of stuff lately." But we don't talk about it a lot. It's just a thing. But because of how sound works, and we had this cat here, we have these things called "norns," which are these long curtain things that hang until about a foot off the door. And that would allow us to maintain the temperature in here, because this room gets very cold, because it would be an uphill from that valley. And so we had these things, but the norns would allow the cat to still walk underneath. This is a really long walk to tell this story. So what we started doing in order to not run into each other when we're coming out of our offices is we, when one of us goes in the hallway, we'll make a noise like the haunting in Beetlejuice, the "woooooahhh!" kind of like goofy kind of noises. But sometimes, I tend to do it, because I'm weird like that. And Sharon will often do it, but sometimes she won't, and I'll go out in the hallway, and I'll just scare the crap out of me. And my first thing is like, "Why did you make the ghost noise?" You know, because that's how you know it's not a ghost. You know, you usually make noises like that. But yeah, it's funny, because like that, I mean, we'll both see something and kind of turn, and kind of like, "Did you just see something?" You know, but it's always like the corner of the eye thing. I don't often get like a person, but we've both gotten that in here, where we were sure the other one was like right behind us, and we turn around and they're not there, and it just like chills right away. Okay, that's creepy. But the thing is, I know we haven't looked into it. We don't know if anyone's died here, but I don't necessarily think it was that.

WDG: Like, usually, it could be like, I mean, but it's— So here, this is a weird thing, like that was kind of funny for the ladies of the first day. I was talking about like the hearing something, like a haunting, that people are still alive. Could you potentially, you know, like you live in the same place for a very long time. You do a lot of stuff, and then like maybe like, I don't know, like change things around. And then the next thing you know, like you're hearing something coming from a different spot. Could you be like haunting yourself? Like, you know, like— I love this idea. Like you're making noises, and there's other stuff, because that's where like the kitchen was, and I don't know, you're renovating. Now that's like a room, and the kitchen's over here or something. And now you hear like chopping in the living room, like chop, chop, chop. It's like, oh, it's just a cutting board. But that's where the kitchen was that I had. Now I'm haunting myself.

Baba: Yeah, like it reminds me briefly of Dan, the story you opened with. And actually, I heard this story from some online person. I don't remember who I'll be. But they're telling this story about they had this desire to go to their childhood home for whatever reason. They were like thinking about going to their childhood home and been there for a while or whatever. So they just like randomly went there one day, and they brought their mother with them. And so they go to visit this home and knock and tell the people what they're doing. This is Australia, if I'm not mistaken. And it might be a little more normal to do. Probably not. Probably not normal anyway. So they go and knock on the door and they say, hey, you know, we used to live here. Just see if we kind of visit the place. And they're like, oh, come on in. And they show them around. And before they leave, before the mom and daughter leave, they say, hey, did anything weird happen when you were here? And they're like, well, what do you mean? And they say, well, there's this little girl we see doing these things in these areas and describing the thing. And it becomes clear to the woman who went to visit her childhood home that she was the little girl that's currently haunting. So it's a similar kind of thing, except again, it's kind of like the, well, is this a true story? It's an interesting story. It's an interesting story. So, yeah. But I like that idea. It's kind of like the idea of could you reincarnate and overlap with your life? You actually encounter. And what if actually there is only one person and they just reincarnated so many times that they're everything? We're all, you know, there you go. I'll bake your noodle. On

Danny C: that note, let's do our ratings.

WDG: Can we like before we do the ratings, can we just like, can we throw like a maybe should we do like a sort of like definitional a bit around this? Like, like, let's exclude banshees and stuff like that. Maybe even to some degree, like the some kind of poltergeist that almost seems like those are something else.

Danny C: I agree.

WDG: And that goes are just like the haunted areas, like the people you see. Would you hang out in a haunted place for many days in a row? I just like not staying there overnight, but just like I have to do have to work there. I'm

Danny C: going to get my I'm going to get my rating. But first, I want to give a fun statistic. I came across it was on you gov dot com. And admittedly, I don't know anything about this site. I just kind of came across it. But it said that in 20, this was taken in twenty twenty five was this survey was October of twenty five. Thirty eight percent of Americans believe in ghosts. Thirty eight percent. Thirty eight percent. Seventy five percent of the people surveyed would not stay in a hole. They would not buy a haunted house. So even though they don't believe there's a large fraction of people that would still not buy a haunted house, I thought that was very interesting.

WDG: It just depends on like what the because like at some point in time, like, I mean, I've lived like like my school was in old buildings. I've lived in like a few buildings that are particularly old. Like, you know, when I lived in Baltimore, I lived in a really old brownstone. There's a good statistical chance of somewhere somewhere along the line. Someone died in that place. I don't know. It didn't seem particularly haunted, like unless the haunting was like, you know, your neighbor's starting to allow party or like, you know, like or like out on the stupid two in the morning crying about breaking up with their boyfriends or something like, I mean, like, it wasn't like that. There wasn't particularly that type of, you know, I mean, like that's a different type of. Like, you know, it's like, but the, you know, it's just like it kind of it's like there's got to be like, you know, it's also never really like, I don't know, I feel like I'd like to see like some weird or like something like more mundane. It's always something rundown or something that has some element of spookiness. It's not like, yeah, this brand new like water park. It's like, you know, like, it's just kind of funny, like that said so it's like, yeah. But so I think buying the haunted house would be like, well, did like a murder occur? And is it like, you know, like, oh, yeah, I don't think it matters.

Danny C: I don't think it matters. The idea is like they don't believe in it, yet they're still not willing to buy it. I think that's like that paradox I find very

WDG: even if I didn't believe in hauntings, I wouldn't necessarily want to buy like a like a like a crazy murder house, you know, like a bunch of people came in here and gunned people down or like, it was like a serial killer. Or something like that might not be haunted. Yeah, I would like I mean, it's haunted, but I definitely don't think it'd be good vibes, you know, like, otherwise

Baba: you'd be fine if it weren't a murder house, but it was haunted.

WDG: But it was just like a normal. I mean, like, there's a good chance like I've spent time in places that's more supposedly haunted. I don't know. It didn't really seem to be if it's like not interfering with your day to day. I guess it probably would.

Baba: I think this is the boogeyman closet door thing.

WDG: Yeah, yeah. I think it has to be like how interfering it would be though. Like it would be like, is it like, oh, well, occasionally like these doors open and close or something or whatever. It's like, or is it like, I don't know, it randomly starts fires. It's like, well, that's a different story. I guess like probably just something that's either really wrong with this house that fires are randomly breaking out, whether it's haunted or not. Yeah, severe electrical problems. Like, you know, I don't think that's.

Baba: You've got your other reasons.

WDG: Yeah.

Danny C: All right. So so so rankings. Here we go. So generic ghosts. I found it more fascinating than scary as I do with a lot of these things. I've had several weird experiences in my life. Some of them I was the only person to witness. Sometimes there was another person. And it's always been a cool experience and it's never been enough of an experience for me. I just find it really cool. And I look forward to some more opportunities. So that being said, I would have to give this just a three something middle of the road. It can be kind of scary, I think. And other times not at all like there. You know, I heard this one story where this person was that they were in a haunted house and, you know, that that ghost allegedly pushed them down the steps. And I haven't been able to shake that. It's like, you know, any time I go up or down the steps, like, that's always a possibility. So there's always the opportunity for bad things to happen, but I still find it incredibly fascinating. I do believe there's something to it, whether it's something we just don't understand or a spirit. I don't know. But regardless, really cool. I give it a solid three monsters.

WDG: Right on. Right on. So I'm going to say I'll probably put mine in the round two. I think I'm going to be in the Civil Art Campus here. I don't really find it particularly scary. Like, it's like I don't I mean, like, especially for eliminating, like, I don't know, monsters that stab you or something like that. Like, I probably find the boogeyman scarier than ghosts. Like, I think if that kind of thing. Those type of ideas, like, I think, like as a phenomenon, because it's like it seems I don't think it's cool that like it kind of stretches across. I think ghosts. I think it's cool in that sense. Haunted places like I've been to a bunch of different places, but nothing. No experiences at all, even when other people have apparently had something happen in the same kind of place, which makes me wonder, maybe the phenomenon is more linked to those people than it is to the thing. It's interesting. And I like the stories that I like the fact that like I really find the whole like people telling stories about things that are like haunted, but like there's no reason for it to be haunted because the one's dead. I think that stuff is kind of like seems like really cool. And it's like I like it. But like, I'm not like super scared. It doesn't that doesn't make me like, oh, God, like, this is frightening. So definitely a two or like pretty low for me.

Baba: Yeah, I'm going to I'm going to say four four. And and the reason why is just like the real life experience of encountering these kinds of things like if I turn off the light and I'm standing next to the mirror and it's late at night and I have that Bloody Mary thought I hightail it. And I don't like really like believe in Bloody Mary in that sense, right? I think if my first response, if I were to be in a place and all of a sudden there's this ghostly thing happen, I think my first response would be to kind of flee. But then I'd be like, if I felt like it was like, I'm safe, though, I'd probably just be like amazed at what I'm seeing and take it in because it's like, even though I think it's scary. I think it's amazing. And I'd like to experience it, not the push downstairs set you on fire, mock you at your funeral type. But like the but like that, like, you know, like you're getting a ghost tour in Gettysburg or something. You see there's a Civil War guy and he's like, he's not a reenact guy just hanging out there. And it's like, like, well, like, I wouldn't really think like he's going to come get me because well, maybe maybe it's less scary when it's the recording type and more scary when it's the intelligent type. Yeah. So I'm still going to say all of its for because I even when I'm talking about this stuff, I'm giving myself goosebumps because it's like I think because to me, the dead, specifically the dead more than cryptids, have like a little more of a punch the microphone, have a little more of an inroad to my side in that regard. I do my best not to speak ill of the dead in general, you know, and yeah, so I'm going to say I'm going to say for but I still want to experience a lot of this stuff, even though it's going to scare the hell out of me. Who ain't afraid? No, guess. Well, I'm kind of I've got to scare them, you know, and apparently, regardless of what they say, 75% of people surveyed by the you gov thing are also like call you all on it. If not, then buy one. What's stopping you?

WDG: Like, yeah, in this housing market, definitely buy a haunted us.

Baba: But the takeaway here, the takeaway, we can help you guys, we can help you, friends. If you need to reduce the price of the house that you want to buy, you need to get it haunted, because 75% of people will want to get out of there.

WDG: And that so spread hot. So if you find a property and really like go on the Internet and spread haunting rumors, try

Baba: to get it on a ghost tour map or actually haunted somehow get the sub kind of cursed object or something. But then you don't have to.

WDG: Yeah, but now that's a good. Yeah, then you don't want to do that. I like it. Then you know that all you got to really know you're doing cursing is and that's a whole different different. See, see cursed object. So a whole different episode.