EP 9: Polybius Urban Legend | Mind Control Disguised as a Video Game!

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The early 1980s were a golden era for arcades. Teenagers crowded into dimly lit rooms filled with the sounds of electronic beeps, the smell of pizza, and the thrill of chasing high scores. Yet among the Pac-Man and Space Invaders machines, one mysterious game is said to have appeared briefly and then vanished without a trace. This game, known only as Polybius, has become one of the most enduring and chilling urban legends in gaming history.

The story claims that Polybius was no ordinary arcade cabinet. Instead, it was a tool of mind control, a government experiment disguised as entertainment, and possibly even a machine linked to psychological manipulation, hallucinations, and worse. The Wondering Monsters Podcast dives deep into this eerie tale, exploring the origins, theories, and cultural impact of the so-called haunted game.

The Origins of the Polybius Legend

According to the myth, Polybius surfaced in arcades in Portland, Oregon sometime in the early 1980s. Unlike other games, it bore no flashy artwork or branding, only a plain, black cabinet with a strange and unremarkable name. Players who encountered it reported unusual experiences: dizziness, headaches, nightmares, memory loss, and even seizures. Some rumors suggested that a few players collapsed or even died after playing.

Adding to the mystery were reports of strange men in black suits visiting the arcades. These shadowy figures allegedly collected data from the machines, not quarters. Witnesses claimed they seemed more interested in the psychological effects on players than the gameplay itself.

The cabinet supposedly disappeared just as quickly as it arrived. No physical copies were ever found, and no definitive photographs exist. To this day, Polybius remains a phantom of arcade history, straddling the line between urban legend and conspiracy theory.

Why Polybius? The Name and Its Echoes

One fascinating aspect of the legend is its name. Polybius was a real figure from ancient Greece, a historian known for his works on political structures and the balance of power. The connection may not be accidental as choosing such a name suggests hidden meaning. Was the name meant to evoke authority, intellect, or control? Or was it merely an obscure reference chosen to deepen the mystery?

The name alone has become a keyword in video game lore, instantly sparking curiosity among fans of both history and conspiracy theories.

Polybius and the Panic Over Video Games

To understand why the Polybius legend gained traction, it’s important to consider the cultural context of the early 1980s. Video games were still new, and moral panics surrounded their effects on children. Newspapers frequently ran stories about the dangers of screen addiction, while parents worried that arcades were dens of delinquency.

Polybius, with its alleged health effects and shady government ties, tapped perfectly into these fears. It became a kind of Necronomicon of video games, a forbidden machine that represented all the anxieties of a generation encountering new technology.

The Theories Behind the Legend

The Wondering Monsters Podcast explores several theories about what Polybius could have been … if it ever existed at all:

• Government Experiment: Many believe Polybius was part of a covert government program, possibly linked to MK-Ultra, the CIA’s infamous mind control project. The game may have been designed to test psychological manipulation, subliminal messaging, or even behavioral conditioning.
• Alien Influence: A more fantastical theory connects Polybius to extraterrestrials. Some suggest that the game’s disorienting effects and hallucinations could have been the result of otherworldly technology, monitored by mysterious men in black.
• Moral Panic and Misremembered Events: Skeptics argue that Polybius is nothing more than a myth born from the anxieties of the time. Reports of fainting or illness may have been due to existing health issues or the effects of flashing screens on sensitive players. Over time, the story snowballed into legend.
• A Clever Hoax: Another possibility is that the entire story was fabricated as an early internet-era hoax. The first major mention of Polybius appeared in the early 2000s on a gaming forum, suggesting the tale may have been retroactively planted to spark curiosity and fear.

The Gameplay: What Did Polybius Look Like?

Descriptions of Polybius vary, but most accounts suggest it was a fast-paced, puzzle-like shooter with hypnotic visuals. Players reported flashing lights, shifting geometric patterns, and strange sound effects that induced a trance-like state. Some accounts even describe subliminal messages or visuals that were unsettling or disturbing.

Because no arcade board or code has ever surfaced, the gameplay remains speculative. Over the years, several fan-made recreations have attempted to capture the alleged style of Polybius, but none can be verified as authentic.

Polybius in Pop Culture

Whether real or not, Polybius has left a lasting cultural impact. It has been referenced in TV shows, documentaries, and video games. For example, The Simpsons once featured a Polybius cabinet in the background of an episode, with the cabinet labeled Property of the U.S. Government. Such appearances fuel the mystery and keep the legend alive.

The story has also inspired indie game developers to create their own versions of Polybius, blending surreal graphics with unsettling audio to simulate the rumored effects. These modern recreations serve more as homages to the legend than attempts to uncover the truth.

Why the Legend Endures

Polybius endures because it exists at the crossroads of three irresistible themes:

• Video games as a new cultural frontier
• Government secrecy and mistrust of authority
• The thrill of the unknown and forbidden

It combines the innocence of arcade fun with the darkness of conspiracy, creating a story that feels plausible enough to haunt the imagination. Much like stories of UFOs, haunted houses, or cursed objects, the legend thrives because it cannot be fully proven or disproven.

Final Thoughts on Polybius

The Polybius urban legend stands as one of the most fascinating myths in gaming culture. Whether it was truly a mind control experiment disguised as a video game, a case of mass hysteria, or simply a clever internet hoax, its power lies in the questions it raises.

The Wondering Monsters Podcast reminds us that legends like Polybius are not just about the truth of whether they happened, but about what they reveal about our culture. In this case, Polybius reflects fears of technology, mistrust of government, and the hidden costs of entertainment.

Even if no cabinet is ever found, the story of Polybius continues to capture imaginations and spark debate, making it the ultimate haunted arcade machine—a myth that refuses to die.

Listen to the Full Episode

Want to explore the chilling details and wild theories behind Polybius? Listen to the full episode of the Wondering Monsters Podcast, where we dig deeper into the myth, its cultural roots, and why it still matters today.

Links from the Show

• Polybius game on Steam:
• XKCD Strong Password
• Are Ouija Boards Real?
• Is Bloody Mary Real?
• Necronomicon & Cursed Books Explained
• Unlocking Dream Potential: What's Possible and What's Not

Watch & Listen to the Full Episode

Enjoy where the conversations of silly meet strange at the Wondering Monsters Podcast.

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Licensing Information

• Title: Entry of the Gladiators
• Composer: Julius Fučík
• Library of Congress (Public Domain)
• Podcast theme song version edited/arranged/mixed by Dan Swift

Unless indicated, images appear in their original form.

The following images were generated using AI from MyNinja.ai, NightCafe, lenso.ai, or ChatGPT
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Transcription

*Transcription was automatically generated and may contain errors. 

(Upbeat Music)

WDG: So somewhere in the like early eighties, there's this of a, whether it's a haunted or supposedly government mind control video game. It's like, it's completely unlabeled. It's in these arcades in and around seemingly specifically the Portland, Oregon area. are playing it. They start, like people get, you know, reporting being dizzy, possibly, you passing out dying. It's like people show up. They keep checking on the progress of the cabinets. not there to collect coins. You know, it's like there may be some men in black type figures. And this is the myth of polymas. the video game cabinet that doesn't exist, be linked to any kinds of things from aliens, government mind control manipulation, or just sheer weird cause things that panic about video games in the 1980s. So yeah, so it's a, it's a, even a, I think a couple of places in my research, the one person has been quoted as calling it the Necronomican of video games. And it's up there with one of the earlier versions of like votes now like digital folklore. Like it's still in that cusp of, you know, the urban legend where, you know, it's like things spread by word of mouth, but possibly the start of the spreading of the idea of this starts in like, you know, the, like the nineties around like things on like early versions of Usenet and things of that nature, like people talking about, you know, weird conspiracy theories and things of that nature. So it's like, so there's, um, yeah, but it's cool though. It's like, and it's the start of that weird, like, but I think I like about this is like, it's in that, yeah, it's in that weird cusp zone of like spreading those stories at the playground or whatever, or something that happened to somebody's cousins or something like that. But then also the beginning of like these, you know, internet conspiracy, you know, it's like, it's kind of fun. Cause I feel like we've talked about a lot of like old like Ouija mirrors and like these things that have always been haunted, but like the idea of like a video game being sort of a cursed object kind of a fun, modern, take that they seem to like, we really like these ideas. Don't let them go.

Baba: And it just keeps showing up in a new form. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I think that's great. Uh, the, the shadowy world of a game that does not exist. Yeah. Um, wild. Yeah. I've, um, I know a little bit about this just from my own poking around and, interest in like tech that can mess with your head and stuff like that. I was going somewhere with that, but well…

Danny C:, I'll interject for a second.

Baba: My brain's all glitchy. I've been playing this game.

WDG: You keep glitching.

Danny C: Bill, do you remember what kind of game this was supposed to be? Were there any details? I can't remember. And kind of like what, what Baba was saying, like I remember reading and watching different YouTube, um, you know, documentaries, talk about words on this like a while ago. Um, but I can't remember, did they ever talk about the type of game it supposedly was?

WDG: Well, that's the thing is like, it's, you know, you're right in that weird, like, you know, early eighties, right? Like very, very early eighties. So it's like these, um, it's supposed to just be like, it was like weird. There's a lot of colors. All the cabinets were unmarked. They're just black cabinets. Um, I can probably extrapolate a little bit on that, like chew later why that those things might be the, the whole, like, you know, and it was like, just supposed to be like this weird, like thing that basically as you're playing it, you're like hypnotized into it. It was like, you know, lights and flashing and colors. And that could also be like, well, that's kind of what arcade games were, but like, you know, circa 1981, you're still in the real heyday of that, you know, you figure you're only a couple of years out from pong at that point, you know, it's like, like, you know, it's like, um, my on this is like always, and it's come up that like people have pointed to like, oh, well, there might be this game, might be that game, like things like that. Um, but there's I think like Tempest was likely the, like, would be the closest and a lot like to, I think what that was. Um, and if no one's ever played Tempest or seen the game Tempest, if you can actually play a real version of it, like the actual arcade version of it, it is like a pretty wild thing. I mean, it's the first, um, color vector game. So like the difference between like the vector games and like the CRT games at the time, it's like the way that the, it almost feels more like a laser show, say like the nineties or early 2000s, it'd be really hard to come across an arcade cabinet version of it, just floating around somewhere because like the vector monitors were hard to maintain or hard to maintain a lot of them. Also like because they were pushing the system at the time, like a lot of them would fail constantly, like even in the eighties, you know, not track this down, but there is like a conjecture and this, this is like also sort of in the, in the like urban legend kind spectrum is that the first times where people start reporting like seizures from our, you know, because think about even like been the warnings on like Nintendo games and things like we're like games, like this could cause seizures and stuff like that. And this is before the Pokemon, you know, uh, television show caused all those kids to have seizures or whatever in Japan, but it was like, but we knew that that would be because they were all so cute. Yeah. Yeah. There's something like, there was a, but, but like, but 1981 is right around when the first reported seizures are happening in video games. Tempest is also released in 1981. It is like the difference between seeing one, like I've only ever really played them at like small conventions or whatever. It's like, it is very vibrant. It's like really colorful when the monitor is, we're, you know, working right. And it like, and I could see why that could, and that was like, they didn't know that was going to happen, you know, like people. And so, so there might be some, so I'm gonna, I'm gonna tack that down to say like, that's probably like, at least some of the inspiration of this idea, you know, it's like probably in there. some of the things with polybus thing is like, that maybe it's like weird tech that was related to like Operation Paperclip or something like that, they were developing from space program things. That was one of the things. The men in black showing up and tracking on the stuff, feels a little vaguely like the last starfighter kind of thing, like seeing who's, has high scores, you know, it's like, like, it's like, there's a, you know, it seemed like, oh, maybe there's a, you know, a reason like these people are good. But the, but Atari would actually put unmarked arcade cabinets into places to play test them. Like, and people would go and see, check like how many coins were put in, how, like one of the high score rotations and things like, like shady things like that.

Baba: Arcades were actually kind of a place for like, shady little mini crimes to happen. You know, drug dealing. Yeah, exactly. I mean, if it's like a laser show, you need to get your recreational consumables.

WDG: it is like a laser show. So I'm wondering if the polyimous thing is very like, like the ideas, it's supposed to be this kind of, you know, early weird version of like, and also like an experience that you really can't have outside of an arcade game itself, you know, you're in this dark room, there's all the sounds, lights, and this thing is just like, like really glowing, like glowing even more than the other stuff, you know, stuff, it must be an interesting idea. Yeah.

Baba: Well, and it's interesting because like, you've got it out of time. So this is occurring at a time when people are like, really obsessed with video games. I mean, that hasn't really changed, but it's just like the shape of what it is, you know, but like, this was new. There were people like, playing for 20 hours or something like that, you know, and just kind of like, well, what happens if you stay up for that long? You know, you start having some wonky image, you start running away from mirrors. You, you know, you hallucinating. So things, not to mention, things, your body, control your body temperature, your blood sugar and things starts to get affected when you're in that sleep deprivation world. And staring at a screen intently with all those neurochemicals going through, probably

WDG: consuming at the least vast amounts of caffeine, if not other available. And then thinking about even like Portland in the 80s and 90s, I mean, maybe so less so today, but like those, you know, it does seem to be the hot, like, you know, a counter cultural hotbed area, you know, so it's, you

Baba: was fascinated by this because probably not surprisingly, when it comes to like the mind control which its own little thing, we can just definitely jump down that rabbit hole at some point. But it's, you know, but the like the old ideas of hypnosis, and how it worked, I say old ideas, I mean, old pop culture ideas, because I mean, Dave Elman was like, changing up the way hypnosis was done. Mid 20th century, you know, you had Milton Erickson. And so like, by the time we get to things, like I think about the prisoner, the sci fi, you know, the prisoner, and you've got the hypnosis episode, and it's like a blinking light. It's like if only it were that sometimes

WDG: it's also like auditory sounds and weird things like

Baba: combined, you know, you start to have there are some things that are of disputed effectiveness, when it comes to altering your mental state. Binaural beats, binaural sounds. And the idea with these is that you've got essentially, luckily, I've got some music people here, you've got one tone, that is so it's a headphones thing, you have one speaker on one ear speaker on the other. So going through one ear is one tone, going through another year, your probably your your other ear is a different tone. And then your brain basically hallucinates and makes up the difference to create a tone that is not either of those tones, but is sort of a synthesis of those two tones. Does that sound right?

Danny C: Yeah, that's usually done to to quote unquote hear frequencies that you can't normally hear. So for instance, you know, if you I want to say it's like sub 10 hertz, I want to say I want to say it's like nine or six or something like that. But what you do is you basically do exactly what you said, you get these two frequencies that they are, and I'm assuming this out. I can't remember exactly, because I haven't looked at this in a long time, probably about two years. But it's you might have something that is, you know, 250 hertz on the left, 256 hertz on the right, the difference is six hertz, you hear you quote unquote hear six hertz. And I can't remember if one has to be out of phase, so it cancels out. I can't remember the specifics. But that's, you know, the very general version of how it works.

Baba: Yeah, yeah. The idea.

Danny C: Go ahead. I definitely wanted to try this. But the the video on YouTube I was watching, they said that, you know, there are possible side effects of that, including like people can have seizures from it. So I was like, once I once I read that or heard that, I was like, you know what, as cool as it sounds, I don't know that I want to give that a go because seizures in and of themselves the idea of it just it freaks me out for some reason, I don't know why, but it just really creeps me out. So I'm like, it's not

WDG: a thing you want to know. Yeah, yeah. And like, and that like, you know, but like how to make sense of like, this whole like video game thing is like, supposedly like, you know, it's got all these weird lights, it's got these weird sounds, like it's like, it does seem serious, you know, and like, and probably like also like, not that we don't have a government paranoia thing going on in our current, you know, timeline. But the 80s definitely has a different type of paranoia. I think it's like, it's very easy to believe, oh, yeah, well, maybe like, this is a way to, you know, like, like that. And you can probably talk more about this, because like, MK ultra kind of idea, but it's more like, oh, well, you can just find ways of hypnotizing the youth. So, you know, this idea of like, that they were, you know, it's like, you know, we're still, you know, getting, you know, into the, like, all of these things being like, it's the start of the heightened version of the corrupting youth forces, and it would possibly be the belief of the youth at the time that maybe people would use it to like, try to, you know, like, it's like, because it's like, you know, you're figuring you're like, it's much more like, like video games, and dragons, and all these things, weird things that like, pop culture to like, the extreme is where that like, begins in the 80s, for instance, say, like, you know, earlier, or it's not that they didn't have pop culture or youth corrupting things, but it was always like, well, it's rock and roll or punk or something, you know, and it's like, or jazz, it's like, drugs, but it's like, now it's like, video games are a whole weird thing, you know, it's not like, pinball, you figure like, pinball and penny arcade type things have been around, you know, for eons at that point, and then like, boom, video games are showing up in arcade cabinets. And then that's like, and that just skyrockets in a couple years, like, it goes, like, you know,

Baba: so it's interesting, like, games, for a long time, have been suspect, games in general. So you go back to, like, the arrival of cards Europe. this was a problem. cards originated, probably in China, came in to Europe, probably by way of Egypt.

Danny C: I find it kind of funny, like, in our current climate, like China, this, China, that all of our prop not all of our products come from China. It's like, where'd the cards come from? They came from China. They invented paper.

WDG: Yeah, they like,

Baba: But yeah, so they card show up via that route. And the first ones, I think, were the Mumlock decks. And it was a, so it was sort of like, China, Islamic territories have been eventually up into Europe. And by the time you're there, it's kind of like, well, it's, it's a tavern thing. also like, it's very Christian Europe, you've got idea about controlling fate, and trying to do things to control fate. And that's wrong, you know, and that's his prayer in which it's right. But, you know, this kind of idea, like, but games were like, very suspect. And because they're happening in taverns, and it involves gambling and things like, it might actually be dangerous. It might be dangerous in a different kind of way. But you figure like tarot, a way of telling, didn't start like that. It was a game, like, Taroki is a game. And so not a lot of people still play it. But it was like, but it's when people started realizing you could use these things for other things, you know, but, but they were suspect from the beginning. And it's like, like that, Dungeons and Dragons, a role playing game. But it's like, going on, though? So when you've got, the man of the house, the tavern, gambling, in this seedy environment, or you've got your, your shady teenagers in this shady environment, putting coins into these machines, or you've got these shady teenagers in another environment, you know, rolling dice and, I don't know, apparently worshiping the devil, you know, it's like this kind of idea of like, you're outside of those realms of control too. And that's kind of a,

WDG: just as an insert to like, I mean, like pinball, was band in New York, even though there was places you could play it, it was like technically illegal up until like the 70s, because like in the early, it was linked to organized and gambling parlors, and and gambling was illegal, and so therefore pinball was illegal. Like, so it's like, so like, it took that, you know, it's like this kind of like, even though it's like, you didn't really bet on it, it was more just like, it was just a game, but like, most games were linked to gambling or something, you know, doing something like that. And since that stuff was illegal, this was like, so it's like, so yeah, so like kind of like, the more legalization of like arcades and games that are more for amusement, like versus games that were intended, you know, it's like that, that even doesn't really start until like, and then this, you know, so it's like where then you can have like places where a third space, but for teenagers, usually before it would be like, oh, dancehall or but now you have like these kind of more seedier environments, but popular, younger people.

Baba: Yeah, so it's, it's interesting, though, like the idea of like, a mind controlling video game. Could you do it? And think actually now you could. I think We do have the technology now. So like, when it comes like, mind control or hypnosis, it's not enough just to create an altered state. So like, blinking lights binaural beats or things like that, they can create an altered state. There's also a thing we'll talk about at some other point called the, what is it, the frequency following response. And that has to do with a phenomenon called entrainment. And that's where like you, like something in your creature, I'll give a more concrete example in a second, links up with something outside of you. And then is influenced by that thing. And so there's a hypnotist called Milton Erickson, and very famous hypnotist, who used to do something, he was known for doing sort of a, what some people refer to as a covert or conversational hypnosis, or Ericksonian hypnosis, is what we call it now. But where he might take his finger and mirror your breathing. So he would kind of have his finger on his shoulder or something like that. And as you breathe in, he would raise his finger up. And as you breathe out, he would lower his finger down. Very subtle and probably something you weren't picking up. And what he would do is after he real, you know, after he'd done it for a minute, he would change the rate at which he was moving his finger. And the client would change the rate at which they were breathing. So an arcade game in the 1980s might not know your, the rate at which you're breathing, or your galvanic skin response, or your brainwave behavior. Okay, but we have the technology to do that stuff now. So as we move into more and more immersive forms of video gaming, where that stuff is feeding back into the, the big game, and altering its response based on your level of engagement. Yeah, you could do it, you could do it, especially if you build a character, build a character, you know, you go through this like, involved process of building a character that actually on some level is actually like psychologically probing you, you know, could you could you do it now? I think so. I don't know if you could like, man, sure you can candidate somebody, but you can definitely get them to buy Mountain Dew. I mean, you could do that without without all that stuff.

WDG: So I think I think it's interesting about these things is like, there's also like this, dark kind of fears, you know, like these things arise from like these kinds of like, fear of being controlled fear of losing oneself fear of, you know, being you know, it's like, manipulate, it's like, and it's just, it is kind of like a weird thing. That's like, well, of course, that's gonna happen in a dark place with like, it's weird, you know, going back to like the whole, tempest thing and like, but this probably can go back to like a whole, dreams and things and stuff coming out of that stuff. So there's like a period in video games where like, video games are kind of made by like, a person or like two people, and then there's like, then video games are maybe like hundreds of people on big teams. And that's still the case. But now we've kind of also shifted into an era where like, at least in indie games, you can make like something that amounts to like, a very popular game and like one person could make it, like it could be like a passion project, like something like a Stardew Valley, or even like more recently, like a, like a Bellatro, like, it's like, you know, it's, you can make one person can make a game and it can sell a gazillion copies, you know, it's like, it's like, but it's like, but in this period, still in like this, like, like video game history, you're still having like, kind of like one person or a couple people working on something and like, the person who created Tempest, Dave Turrier, he also created like Missile Command. He had worked on like some other games, but those are like the two like, really big ones. And then he actually worked on like, one of the first 3D, like commercially released 3D games and stuff.

Danny C: Well, side note, Missile Command, was that similar to the game in, what was the movie, War Games? Is that similar or they might not?

WDG: I'm trying to remember like, isn't he playing that in the beginning? It's a, again, like, it's a trackball game, right? It's a very, and it's another one of these kind of like, super good at the time. So it's like, you're dealing with like these, like flat graphical, you know, like, it's like, you know, this is like, yeah, and it's, you're defending bases from missiles coming in, but supposed to be bases from missiles coming in, but supposed to be like aliens. But the, but he's like, but the, but both, both of those games and like, are like interesting. It's like, like, Dave Turrier he said, when he was working on Missile Command, he kept having this dream that like, all these missiles were coming in to the major cities in California, because it's the 80s, you know, and destroying the city, like he was driving down the highway and the cities are being like destroyed or something. And it's like, and in that you're defending like three areas, but they're like, not labeled. It's like, they're not specifically that. So it's like, it's supposed to be aliens. It's not the Russians nuking. But in mind, I think these lines, it's pretty easy to, to point to like the lines and then like, like Tempest, when like he's working on that, it's like him and like, you know, a person working on the engineering end of things to get the vector, the color vector to work. And like, you know, and that's like, basically, like one other person making sure things are maintained as they're doing testing and stuff like that. And it's like, but he had a dream, like he said, from like his childhood of like, these monsters coming out of the ground and trying to pull him into the, you know, like, and so like, Tempest is like this, that is kind of this thing. It's like, you're like, it's like, it's almost like the idea is like, it's in a first person perspective, you're going through a tube, it's in space supposedly, but like these monsters are coming, they come out of that and you have to keep them going down. And there's like a really like weird, and it's like, so like, these are almost like these weird kind of like variants of like some strange version of art, you know, it's like, is even in the like, missile command, the thing, it doesn't say game over, like when you lose, it's like, because they're still messing with that. But it says like, the end, you know, when you're like, that's it, like, you know, give you the world, like it's like the world. And so there's this like weird idea of like, these weird things that come out of like, dreams and strange things, and then they become sort of parts of these now, like, urban legends and myths and when I'm in an interview like David Lynch had talked about, he doesn't he thinks creativity and like his ideas, it's like, he's like, you're basically just like a radio antenna, and you just pick up these ideas, and then you as the artist, it's your intention to like, manipulate the idea that you've picked up and put it out there, like as best you can.

Danny C: Going back to if this could be done, if it were possible. So, Baba, you talked a little bit about, you know, the hypnotism component to it. Yeah. So back and kind of sticking with that and kind of extrapolating a little bit. So my understanding, you know, you hear from, from, you know, pop culture, whatever, when it comes to hypnotism, you can't do something you wouldn't normally do. So if I'm, if I'm not the kind of person that is violent, you know, you can't hypnotize me to be violent, we'll say, I'm very much oversimplifying this.

Baba: Right, right.

Danny C: But over time, through hypnosis, if you can change different behaviors, I'm inclined to think you could probably change a person to be the kind of person you want them to be. So can you with your background and hypnotism, what would that be like? Like, from could could this be done? Could you in fact, over time, change people to do

Baba: I think so. I think with like the right sub, like certain people would be And which, by the way, like, there's a misconception that like, smart people can't be hypnotized is not true. It's it's actually going into hypnosis is a skill. However, going into like, the idea with hypnosis is like this idea that you can't be hypnotized against your will, first of all. And that's kind of true. But if you're calling it hypnosis, like sometimes if people are playing along with a process, then you're there already kind of in it. Now, there's a world famous hypnotist, magician person mentalist, I guess, Darren Brown, that did a deep dive on the Manchurian candidate type thing to see if he could take a highly responsive subject, which again, you can build your responsiveness for those of you that want to be good at, you know, transing out. people are just more more prone to it than others. And so he took a very responsive subject and worked with him over a period of like a few weeks or a month or two or something like that, to see if he could create a quote unquote Manchurian candidate, which for those that don't know, it's the idea of could you create a secret assassin? That would then also forget that they were the assassin?

WDG: Could you based on the movie, write the Manchurian.

Baba: Yeah, and that's that's the idea. And so it's like, but there is this thing of like, was this kind of a thing really being done? And so when we get into the world of MK ultra, which we won't get too into today, but like, it's this, it was a mind control experiment run by the government to see how how far you could push mind control or behavioral control of an individual.

WDG: Probably also just, you know, I was just there to like, like, damn, like, there's other like, you know, environments, like you without even hypnosis, hypnosis, obviously, you can have environmental manipulation, like just so if people listening, no, no, my wife is a behavior analyst. So I learned a lot about a topic, you know, it's like, but you know, but environmental manipulation is one of the things like they say manipulation, they'll be like, they're trying to manipulate you, but like, changing things in the environment will change behavior, right? And so, like, I guess, like the most, like, probably famous versions of that would probably like, Phillips and Barto and the Stanford prison experiment, right? Like, he took like, just students that were friends, put them into random groups, split them, one became prisoners, one became, you and he was the adag as the warden, he set up cameras and just to watch it. And it got to such a point that these people were abusing each other, they were going through psychological problems, it was like, and they didn't do anything hypnotic, they just said, these are your roles, go play them out.

Danny C: And they wasn't like a crazy amount of time, like within like, just a couple of days, it got essentially out of control that yeah, yeah.

WDG: And he said he was like, I think there's like, like, from the couple things I've seen him talk about it, like, it was like, like in videos and stuff, like he said he was like losing, he was losing his kind of like, as the person supposedly controlling, you know, this kind of thing, it's like he's losing himself in the experiment. And it's like, you know, I mean, that's is so environmental manipulation, yeah, it could be a form of change, and like could change you and turn you from a not violent, not aggressive, and intelligent people, these people that are college students, you know, like it's like these aren't, you know, it's like they're, you know, they have some doing, you know, in a pretty respected school, it's like, they're, they're not exactly, you know, yeah, I think it's like, so probably the fears of like, going back to like the video game thing of I think what's interesting about the polymist thing is it's less about feel like the dangers of video games, especially when we were kids was more shifted to like, the parents trying to protect the youth, right? They're saying, where in this case, with polymas, it's the youth thinking, something outside of us is trying to change us, you know, it's like, it's like the broader systems, this government men in black, weird things, they're trying to do something to us. Like, it's like, you know, it's, it's a different type of foot. Like, yeah, you know, it's like, it's like, they're not trying, you're not trying, it's not like systems are trying to protect you to keep you safe and stop you from becoming, you know, like, violent offenders because you prayed too much Mortal Kombat or whatever, you know, or time crisis or something, you know, at that time, you know, it's like, or listen to too much, like, gangster rap or whatever it was, like, it's like, you know, it's the it's the opposite. It's like, are they trying to manipulate us? It's just like, yeah, yeah, organizations trying to change us. It's just like a kind of, in a weird space, that's kind of, maybe you could feel that, you know, it's sort of, it's like a reverse version of that, that, that kind of fear or something.

Baba: If I were going to do it, I would start by actually studying the processes of cults and how they thing I would do is it would be an online game. And there'd be a community. So you build in the social proof element of it. There would be events that take place at weird times that would interrupt your sleep pattern. And they would be like very important to do these things to level up, you know, so you'd be effing up your sleep thing. There'd be certain insider outsider type things I do to create this sense. This is not a smear on geocachers. I actually think they're really cool. But geocachers kind of think it's like, they're geocachers. And then they'll refer to people that aren't geocachers as muggles.

Danny C: It's like, real quick, real quick, explain geocaching for anyone that might not be familiar.

Baba: Yet geocaching is a treasure hunting like activity where certain caches or, you know, like a treasure where certain caches are left, the information is left online and you use GPS and your own hunting skills to go and track them down. And sometimes it's a thumb drive stuck in a tree and you can download files from it or it's a little box and it's got little trinkets in it and you can take something and leave something. But it's this activity of these people that will go out and hunt these locations using these devices. And they're a little niche, little group. So for there's an inside and outside when it comes to geocachers. But I think they're all very welcoming to people that want to be in it.

WDG: Yeah, you could just start doing it. It's like pretty much like you don't need to have a community or have a...

Baba: But if you made this game, this theoretical game that you actually did, you needed to get in. It was like kind of exclusive. Now you've got the makings of a thing where you actually really could create a manipulation system to build. You could... I want to use terms to get us defunded, hypothetically defunded. Sorry for costing us our Mountain Dew subscription. Way to go.

WDG: Yeah. I was working on that too.

Baba: My bad. You can just get me out of the show. Put it in the comments if you want. Sorry guys. Yeah. Well, I was going somewhere with that, but you guys could take it away. I apparently crashed and burned.

WDG: So yeah, think about it, like driving back to like, I wonder what... I mean, something that comes out of these like weird urban legend type things that are like, you know, or haunted. It's like, if it's just a regular cursed object, then you can just say, "Well, that's just a thing." We know it's like the curse is just whatever the vague implications are that will happen when you operate this thing. I think there's supposed to be like more modern versions of this. It's like a weird Pokemon game. It was like an unreleased cartridge and you go to a thing and the town and everyone's... When you're visiting on the game, you end up in this town that's like a secret town and everyone's dead or something and then you die or something. Kind of like that kind of thing. Or like there's another one that's like, you're playing through and it causes you to lose your mind and you commit suicide or whatever. But it's all kind of based on these things. But I feel like the weird thing, probably the thing is like, there's no end game. What was the intention of the mind control? I don't know, to I guess raise, get people to join the military during the Cold War? I mean, that seems like... Put in more quarters. Yeah, it's like, yeah, more quarters.

Baba: They had to pay back the demons for the vector technology. Yeah, yeah.

WDG: Yeah, it's like the project paperclip, you know, it was Area 51. That's where we got the vectors.

Baba: I mean, how would aliens play video games, you know, if it weren't like this?

WDG: That's the only way they know how. How about

Baba: these fighting games? I just want geometric. Yeah. So you want to play it?

WDG: Well, I guess, yeah, let's start with the creepy thing. what's my rating? Well, it's like real, like, I mean, I, but vast research do not think that an actual polybus is real. I think it's like something that got brought up a little later that were probably based on certain things that were happening around that time period. But like, people are remembering it through like a playground nostalgia lens. There are probably things that were happening though, like, definitely, there were FBI staking out arcades and stuff like that to bust people for drugs and drug rings and organized crime is around that stuff, you know, and there's the Atari putting out like the, the, you know, like, test cabinets and tracking them and seeing like, what's going on, you know, like, it's like, so even though I like the idea of the evil video game, I don't, I don't know that I feel like it's like that real. If it were, will I want to play arcade cabinets? It's going to fry my brain. Probably not. But uh, yeah, but um, I'm gonna so I mean, but as a so, but the idea of a thing that you don't know, that you just think you're just going to go and have some fun and then the next thing you know, you're mind controlled or dead or whatever the end result is, you know, that's kind of scary. Like, you know, like, like linking fun to the things. So I'll give it like, I'm gonna give it three monsters, even though this is like, one of my favorite things, I'd like to rank it higher, but I just think it's like, it's more just like, it's just the randomness of being afraid of, you know, like everyday kind of objects or, or new experiences. Like maybe there's like just that kind of fear of like, I've ever been to this place, I've ever experienced something like this. And then like, this thing might kill me, you know, and it's like, probably not, but it's like, that's scary. You know, so I'll give it like, if it were a real, there was a real chance that like one of 100 video game cabinets would do something horrible to you. Yeah, I'd probably be scared of that at that time period, especially when you're in like, it's a pretty prevalent thing for kids to do. Yeah.

Baba: I don't think it's as scary for me. I find it fascinating. I find it fascinating.

WDG: You do want to be killed by us.

Baba: We probably will be, you know, but yeah. Yeah, I think I find it fascinating. I, I guess, I, I guess the idea of mind control technology doesn't scare me as much as like, say, like demonic possession or something. I think just because I'm more tuned to analog threats than digital ones. But however, when it comes to recognition, I think, yeah, like the cursed game that we didn't talk about, like the last starfighter and the way these things like, we also didn't talk about something that's becoming much more a topic of conversation right now, which is the effect of devices on neurochemistry and the idea of like, hacking dopamine and like do things like how do things keep you doing things and, and, and making, making devices more.

Danny C: Let's not go back to that after the ratings. I think we can do a little there. That could be fun. Yeah.

Baba: Yeah. Yeah. So, so there's all that stuff. And in some ways, that's, that's scary from a social perspective. But, but yeah, I'm going to say this of the things we've talked about so far, this is probably the least scary for me. Just probably because I don't think it exists yet. And could be potentially the most scary because you notice I end with yet. I do think the era of software and the era of digital technology that influences the human character is we're just reaching, we're just scratching the surface on it. And it could go really poorly or it could go really well. But usually things that could go really poorly or really well go more in the poorly direction.

WDG: You get, you get about 20% well than 80%.

Baba: So, so I'm going to give this, I think I'm going to give this two wide eyed fascinated monsters that may well be engaged in a video game that's controlling their mind and making them stab each other. So, yeah, two, two full complete monsters for me. That could become scarier if you add in other plot elements.

Danny C: So, polybus is really interesting. So, growing up, I was, I was very much a video game nerd. Love just playing video games for hours and hours and hours, you know, console arcade, whatever, as I became an adult, unfortunately, not as much time to invest. Yes, I do say invest in video games. But oddly enough, I never heard of polybus until just a few years ago. So, I'm very curious about on a general level, general population, how much people have even really heard about this. Like, we've all heard about various conspiracy theories. But polybus never really seems to make it up to the general population. Baba, I'm kind of like with you, I don't find this scary at all. There is, so there's this comic XKCD. And it's all about like, attack and science and kind of thing. It's strong, like with stick figures and very, very entertaining. But I merely thought of this one comic when we were talking about the concept of mind control. And the idea behind this particular comic is that how to break into someone's account when they have a super strong password. And the one way it's like you spend three years trying to add, you know, random password generator trying to get it. And then like, I think the final the final frame, it's like a guy walking into where the other guy is, he has like, how's that he has a hammer. I kind of think about that with this, it's like, if you're going to do mind control on someone, there's got to be an easier way. I think simple blackmail or extortion, you know, would probably get the job done for most people. So from a scary perspective, I just I don't find it to be all that scary. Like Brody said, not real. However, there are people that have made polybus like machines or games based on what we know about what it could have been like. So that's kind of interesting. I believe it's I just had it up on the side here. Lamisoft 2016 polybus for ps4 slash VR. So if anyone is interested in seeing what it could have been like, you can check that out. We do not get any kind of commission on that. So that's a real plug for them.

WDG: We're gonna say something. I was just like, do you have your final rating? What are you giving it? Did you give that?

Danny C: Yeah, so tying it up. I have zero interest in countering it, you know, a vector based game from like the 80s, zero interest. Kind of like you, Baba, I'm giving this to monsters, but kind of giving the eye face, you know, just kind of like very unimpressed. It's kind of like, that's it.

WDG: Well, I would just say that just as a throw out thing, like, just, you know, like, I feel like Chris is always famous for inviting the audience to do things. If you can play a real like just so my thoughts about this are right. And it's like that because there's nothing proven about it. It's like that polybus really is just like, it was just kind of conflated with prototype tempest, right? If you can play an actual version of tempest, like it is like, like not the arcade one up, not on a computer or tempest 2000 or whatever. This is like, you know, like, like an actual straight up like the vector arcade game with a good functioning spinner because it has its own weird control. That's not like any other arcade game as well. Like there's like two or three other arcade games that use the spinner control. Like it is a cool thing and it still like feels like really good. Like today, it feels like really good. It's like it like just the style of gameplay and it is kind of hypnotic. Like I was only like the somebody years ago, I just got to play actually play like a real one of it. That wasn't just like versions on like the, you know, like a bad PC, you know, main port or something like that. Like it's like, it's not gonna look this, it just doesn't have the same thing because it's like, part of it is about the hardware and the like, you need both the vector thing you both and you need this spinner control, which if anyone doesn't know, it's a middle knob that kind of rotates because the thing is you're controlling the your like essentially ship or gun or whatever, like the your object that you use to stop these things that are coming at you around, like you have to move it around this tunnel, like, you know, so it's like, and you're shooting kind of into it. And it's like, but everything's like this weird geometric it's like really it feels very art like, in a sense, because of like the really good use of the like, of like limitations at the time, like not trying to make things look like oh, like, like you think like Space Invaders, like weird little cute looking, it just looks like these weird shapes and things and are strange. And it's like, it's cool. And it's like, it's a it's a it's a cool experience. And if so if you get to go to like a weird little like video game convention or place where people like bring their own, like, retro hobby arcade cabinets or something like that. I know there's a couple few of them around. It's like I would recommend playing it because usually those things once you're in their free play. So and if someone has a real version of it, like play it, I think it's like it's a different it's a cool experience if you're into retro video gaming, and you haven't ever experienced that or just like, you know, do something different, you know, it's like, yeah.

Danny C: So if anyone has made it this far into the video, definitely check that out. Find a Tempest arcade box and then report back because I want to know about the experience.

Baba: And then when you do it, if no one's watching, I want you to lean up to the cabinet and go, are you in there? Yeah. Come forth. If you're in there,

WDG: unplug it and see if it stays on, you know, big style.

Baba: Yeah. yeah. So technology that affects the brain. And of course, like mobile phones, cell phones, you know, and their their purported effect on society and endless scroll things and how they allegedly or not allegedly how they affect people's dopamine. And the idea that if you get cheap dopamine, if you get cheap thrills, it actually makes the things that you would normally do to get dopamine less desirable because you can do these easy things to get it. And it actually sort of like drags down your dopamine levels because so when you've got when you want to do something, there's a thing called so you make a prediction and there's a phenomenon called reward prediction error, which is when you you think something's going to be really good and then you get to it and it's not that good. You hyped it up and it's just it lets you down. But the problem is so like if you're running on a treadmill every day, you know, and you're just once I get through all this, I'm going to buy myself a thing and I'm just I'm just thinking about how good that thing is going to be. It's actually detrimental to your your long term ability to keep up with this thing. Because what happens is when you get to that thing, it's not going to meet those expectations because of the way you hyped it up. And that's what's called reward prediction error. So actually, your dopamine drops lower than it was before you started the process of hyping yourself up. It's it's really weird. But so one of the things is your takeaway listeners. One of the things you can do is if you're trying to achieve a goal, you seize the narrative in the midst of that goal and you say, Oh, man, like this is really hard. That's why I'm doing it. I'm doing it to get stronger. And if you sort of take the reward and you put the effort as the reward that you're getting stronger now, your brain actually starts to link the dopamine to that effort. And instead of to the ice cream you're gonna get at the end of the week or or at the end of the day, whatever. And so but the thing is, we're being manipulated with dopamine all the time. And we're getting these cheap, cheap dopamine supplies and it's tanking motivation, or at least that this is the interpretation of what's happening, that it's tanking our motivation because we were constantly basically using our phones, like little slot machines, well, their programs to act like slot machines so that sometimes they are slums.

WDG: They actually are.

Baba: Yeah, apparently that you can do that now to go wrong. So but that kind of idea of like, well, I just threw a whole lot out there. Feel free to stir it up and see how how we go.

WDG: related to all this stuff that we talked about, I think some probably should need to dive on because it's like, I'm, although I'm all considered about like the the, like, like, why would someone want to mind control? Like, well, what are some of the ways that people do do mind control that aren't these kinds of things? So that might be something. Yeah, we should.

Baba: Yeah, yeah. And actually, because I mean, it's, it's such a spectrum. When it comes to mind control. We'll cover it all, though. Well, I, I will open that can of hypnotic worms.

WDG: That's your task. Yeah. Oh, my god. It's such a fun one. I'm here for them. I'm here for the video games and and weird haunted objects. You can you can go for the mind control.

Baba: Come for the video games. Stay for the mind control.