EP 10: Is Mind Control Real?

Wondering Monsters Podcast | 2025-10-14

Watch/Listen to this Episode Is Mind Control Real? License Info Is Mind Control Real? Transcription Is Mind Control Real?

Introduction

In this episode of the Wondering Monsters Podcast, hosts unpack the cultural obsession with mind control. The discussion ranges from childhood images of hypnotic spirals to historical programs such as MK-Ultra, and asks a core question: where does influence end and control begin?

What Is Mind Control?

The hosts begin by defining terms. For many people, mind control conjures images of supernatural powers, alien interference, or cinematic tropes. The episode reframes the topic: mind control also encompasses psychological conditioning, propaganda, and systematic persuasion. Philosophy of mind is part of the debate—if the mind and the brain are not identical concepts, the challenge of defining control only becomes more complex.

Influence vs. Control

A persistent theme is the distinction between influence and outright control. Advertising, political slogans, and cultural jingles nudge behavior but rarely override volition outright. Key concepts discussed include:

Advertising as soft influence: jingles and slogans shape identity and desire more than directly force action.
The Jedi mind trick analogy: suggestion rather than coercion; giving people reasons to comply.
Brainwashing and cognitive dissonance: small rewards and social reinforcement can shift belief and identity.
Stockholm syndrome: complex trauma responses may look like conversion but differ from systematic programming.

The takeaway: most real-world mind control looks like persuasion amplified by environmental pressure, identity, and psychological mechanisms.

Cults, Conditioning, and Compliance

The podcast examines darker historical examples, including the Patty Hearst case, to question when coercion becomes belief. Hosts discuss legal and moral implications when coercion complicates responsibility. Practical techniques are also explained—sales and persuasion rely on tools such as the yes set, reciprocity, and incremental compliance—which can create powerful behavioral inertia.

Technology and the Future

Can machines control minds? The episode separates hype from plausible risk:

Hypnosis: largely cooperative and depends on subject participation.
Entrainment and the frequency-following response: rhythms and stimuli can alter brain states and increase suggestibility.
Frey effect (voice-to-skull): microwaves can create perceived internal sound, but practical limitations and scale make it an imperfect mind control tool.
VR and biofeedback: future systems that react to heart rate, sweat, or gaze could amplify influence in new ways.

Significantly, the episode warns that current social media algorithms and targeted advertising already exercise large-scale influence—often more effectively than any hypothetical device.

Group Psychology: Hysteria and Propaganda

Collective behavior—riots, mass hysteria, or coordinated online campaigns—illustrates how group identity and simple organizing rules produce emergent, powerful outcomes. The hosts compare flocking birds and mob dynamics and discuss how rituals, rhythms, and repeated messaging create social momentum.

Folklore, Conspiracy, and Cultural Resonance

The discussion ties modern fears back to folklore and conspiracy: government programs like Project Stargate, UFO sightings, Marian apparitions, and cultural superstitions (such as the missing 13th floor) all reflect how collective beliefs shape perception. This blend of psychology, history, and myth explains why mind control fascinates the public imagination.

Final Thoughts & Ratings

Hosts rate the threat level differently on their monster scale: one host gives it three monsters (dangerous influence but not supernatural control), another gives one monster (skeptical of extreme claims), and a third awards four and a half monsters (terrified by memory loss and coercion). The episode closes with a sober consensus: while magical mind control remains fiction, persuasion, propaganda, and technological influence pose real and growing ethical risks.

Resources & Further Reading

Books and topics mentioned include works on influence and persuasion, accounts of historical programs such as MK-Ultra, and research into entrainment and hypnosis. (Episode show notes contain a full bibliography.)

Links from the Show

Also Mentioned in the Show

Watch & Listen to the Full Episode

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Licensing Information

Title: Entry of the Gladiators
Composer: Julius Fučík
Library of Congress (Public Domain)
Podcast theme song version edited/arranged/mixed by Dan Swift

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Images were generated using AI from MyNinja.ai, NightCafe, lenso.ai, Gemini, or ChatGPT

Transcription

*Transcription was automatically generated and may contain errors.

(Music)

Baba: My mind has been obsessed with control as it tends to be totally not a psychopathic kind of interest. But you know, here we are. So mind control it's one of those things that actually like I remember like like cartoons as a kid, like probably like my first exposure to mind control is that someone goes, you know, and it sends out you know, like so no exactly what you're talking about. And then like it's coming out from their, their forehead, which for some reason associated with sound. There's a throat chakra, but send it out from their forehead to I guess cause the brain is in the head. And that is what we think of when we think of minds. We think of the brain, which is not entirely the same. In fact, it's been a problem when it comes to the problem of consciousness in philosophy. Philosophy of mind is the mind, the brain. And I say no. Some people say consciousness itself is the epiphenomena of cognitive processes, biological processes happening in the brain. It is an illusion, not a real thing that are being deceived when you think you exist as a self. Descartes would disagree with that. He would say, actually, if I'm being deceived, that presupposes my existence as a self, as an idea, as a thing that thinks of itself as a thing, regardless of whether that thing has a body or a brain or is the brain. So mind control is actually quite a big spectrum. I didn't think about this, but now I did. You've got one end of it.

WDG: Are you sure? Did someone else tell you to think about that?

Baba: Coming back to that. We'll come back to that. At one extreme, you've got subtle advertisements or not subtle advertisements, Tootsie Roll song that after us probably won't know. We just probably don't because of the throwback commercial they're still showing. Singing about the great things about Tootsie Rolls or Oscar Meyer. So these are kind of overt attempts to influence. So that's like not mind control per se, but go to the Stones line. He can't be a man because he doesn't smoke the same cigarettes as me. idea of concepts that get built into products. And are we buying the sizzle or are we buying the steak? And also does the thing provide those invisible things it was aiming to provide? So there's a little preview of this very meandering topic. At the other extreme, you've got full blown demonic possession. That is also mind control. So which ones we're going to talk about in any given mind control discussion is probably going to have to be bracketed to some extent. I think we should leave the demonic possession to an entirely different discussion.

WDG: Yeah, I think that definitely warrants carving that out for a whole different thing. Because I mean, that's something like that. Exorcism could be certainly a different thing you could talk about.

Baba: Because while we can debate whether a self exists, right? I'll let Dan Dennett take the skeptic part on that. But whether we can debate that, we're still talking about things. We don't have to bring in entities demons and things, which are their own problematic thing when it comes to how do you define them? Do they exist, etc. And that's its own. We can spend so much time having that fun conversation.

Danny C: And I think we will at a later date.

Baba: Look for the whatever. Look for the notice. You've been notified. big bad when it comes to mind control, when people are talking about mind control now, they're not usually talking about subtle or overt advertisements, rather. And they're not talking about demons usually. There are aliens at the demon end of that. There's alien mind control. But that comes closer to what most people think of, which is either it goes from the realm of and mind control. So someone with like a mind control power of some kind to mind control technology. So these are types of mind control that have human actors that do not necessarily bring in supernatural powers. So we'll go past like, could you be telepathically someone's mind? Again, that's kind of it's a it's a hop on the other side of the weird fence that the another level of weird territory because then we have to talk about telepathy and things like that. But we don't have to do that yet. We can just talk about technologies and propaganda and hypnosis and have plenty to get lost in, which we probably will. So let me shut up for a minute, a novel concept and ask you all, what do you think about mind control? What are your thoughts when you come to think about mind control? And what was your first concepts of it as a younger creature than you are now?

Danny C: So I'll jump in. Similar to what you're saying with the that's that's kind of what I remember, too. And the spinning, black and white circle, you know, the spiral.

Baba: Yeah, the hypnotic.

Danny C: That is key. If you need to influence anyone, you need one of the I need to put one of those in my office, you know, like. I'm not going to

WDG: watch the hip. That's a cool yourself. You're just like, like, I really don't feel like being here right now.

Danny C: People walk in. I'm like, oh, he looks busy and I'll walk out. They'll try to ask me questions. I won't answer. I'll just be so focused. But but this is this is interesting. So this is not a mind control story per se, but it is tangentially related, I feel like. So, you know, as you guys know, you know, we talked about the story of the human being. And it's almost like a and this is the first time I was in any kind of anesthesia aside from what I had my wisdom teeth taken out when I was a kid. So I don't know what to expect with this. You know, everything I read about it. It's like you're still conscious. You can still move around and all this stuff. That's what they say. I mean, it's a little bit of a I mean, it's a little bit of a And then I'm going to tell you what I heard from other people. So my experience was this. They give me the IV. They take me in the room. They had me lie on my side and they're talking to me. And that's the last thing I remember. The next thing I remember is I don't see anything, but I hear the nurse say my name and an instant. I am there. I am seeing I am in the recovery room. I see I see me a lot of the time. I see my name. I see my name. I see my name. I see my name. I see my name. I see the nurse over there, who just said my name. I'm sitting in a hospital bed thing, but I'm sitting upright. So that's what I remember. Now what I found afterwards, they, the nurse told Lauren that while I was in the procedure room, I'm talking about how weird the anesthesia is. How weird it feels like it's just very weird. And I'm laughing. I'm all kinds of giddy. The procedure ends. They take me back and I'm like, so go get this. I don't know. the procedure ends, you know, they take me back to the recovery room, they bring in Lauren. On there, I'm talking to Lauren about things. I'm talking to the nurse about things. But like for me, from my perspective, it's like no memory of that. It was like one moment I am like in the procedure room, like eyes open, I can start to feel it. And the next minute I'm in recovery, like in an instant. So it's interesting that it wasn't, you know, obviously not mind control by any stretch, but it's like, but they were telling me I could do things and I was complying, but I have no memory of it. And I guess similarly, you could think about like, I feel like it's called, but like the, you know, you slip a pill or whatever and someone's drink and they like lose their memory, their inhibitions. It's very interesting, like that side of things, the medicinal or the medical side. Yeah, I think it too.

WDG: I mean, it also sounds a little bit like being drunk, like to some degree, you know, like you kind of, just like, you know, just in general that has a, you know, that kind of vague, you know.

Baba: Right, right, like was it a memory consolidation thing that you didn't consolidate those memories in the same way? Or was it, and then also you didn't like, but then like you're in the recovery room. So like at some point, did you stop being chatty? Like, it wasn't just like, oh yeah, it's just the weirdest thing at Dan, Dan. (Laughs) Like it wasn't like that, you know? I actually, you know, it's funny you mentioned it. It's like gradual and then back up, you know, yeah.

Danny C: That's the way it felt. But when I asked Lauren about it, I was like, was there any moment that you could tell that all of a sudden I was lucid, that I was, you know, quote unquote there? And she was like, no, it did not, I did not get that impression at all.

Baba: Weird.

Danny C: Yeah.

Baba: Weird, no, that, see that fascinates me as somebody obsessed with the mind. Because look, when you talk about mind control, you have to answer, as a philosopher, you have to do this kind of thing, right? You have to define your terms. Because otherwise people get really wiggly, particularly when they don't want to lose the argument. They just say, whoa, what I really meant by, you know, mind, what the heck is the mind? So the mind is what we think of as the experiential part of what's happening with the brain. It's like, you could say it's the software if the brain is the hardware, you know? A lot of times people use the term interchangeably because the mental experience is so closely correlated, as far as they're concerned with the condition of the brain, the organ, and there are reasons to understand that, that they just think of them as one and the same. However, I'll have to reel this back, I'm wearing a leash when I do this. A near-death experience that occurs away from the physical body, away from the so-called organs of perception, or when cognitive activity, well, what to say, is not detectable, and still there is this experience of what I'll call mind. There's this sense of being, a being of existing in time, to some extent. And so, this kind of idea of like, well, that's the mind, and yet, in your experience, you didn't really have the experience of that happening. So the talking thing that was having cognitive experiences, but you don't have a sense of that happening. So there's the thing of like, was it you? Or was it mind? And what do we think of as the mind? So the scary experience of mind control, bringing it back now to that, is the idea probably that you're there, aware of what's going on, but you can't do anything about it. So it's really more like control. It's more like that. It's more like, oh, well, oh, I'm in my head, and they're telling me to shoot somebody, or whatever. And I'm in my head saying, no, no, no, not doing it. But here goes the thing, the one to figure out. So that's like the mind control of, the cartoon level mind control, right? all of a sudden, you're just totally convinced that you're one of the bad guys too, you know? Because of course there are bad guys.

WDG: I mean, would it be like that though? I always think like the different levels would be like something like, I'm talking about your kind of first interpretation of that, like the thing that always stands out to me, because this would be my first thing, is like the Jedi mind trick, right? You know, like just being able to be like, hey, like don't worry about this, and everyone's like, you know, you don't need to see any identification. But in a weird sense, that kind of thing it's like suggestion, but it's also like, in a weird sense it's like, yes, you're changing the path. But in another sense, you're also sort of giving the person like what they want, right? Like so like in that, like I did like that in that kind of suggestion, you know, because it's like, I don't know, do I really care that much about this? I'm just here doing, you know, like, like, like that, like, because you wouldn't be able to like, you know, it's just like, it's almost like you're being like, yeah, like, you don't need, this is fine. Like, this is, you know, just, and it's like, it's not so much like, I don't know, like in Star Wars, you'll say, oh, it's like a thing to work on like weak minds or something like that, but it's like, but it probably is less like weak, but it's more just like, well, yeah, those guys probably didn't really care that much, you know, this is just their job. They don't, you know, they're getting paid either way, whatever, they don't have that much dedication to, you know, it's like, you can like, so I always think of that. Yeah, I always think about that kind of like that as like a weird like variation of mind control, but in another sense, it is kind of like, it's like suggestion or like telling people what they want to hear. And then like the one that you had said about like, oh no, you can't control myself, like I'm doing the thing or whatever. There's like, I think it's more like, what about like, it's more like a split personality thing. Like, it's like that kind of like, you know, like, you like, you know, you don't remember this thing because like your other, you know, you like, like something else took over or something. It's like, you know, or you're like, or you're doing things that seem normal to you, but you don't realize that this has been something that's been in play. Like, you know, you decide you do want to do this thing. Yeah. It's not so much like, oh, I can't control myself. And I'm thinking this, it's more like, oh no, I think it would be a good idea to go like, you know, commit this crime or do the same, you know, whatever it is, because it's like, you feel like that, you feel compelled to do it, not so much. And I obviously give it more like that way, as opposed to like the trapped, the puppet master version. Yeah.

Baba: And so it raises interesting questions though. So what's the difference then between influence and control? Okay. So like we can talk about the were coming radical.

WDG: Radical, man.

Baba: Yeah.

WDG: They get a skateboard and they eat pizza.

Baba: Which is actually one of the things I think of when I think of mind control, I think of Rude Beggars, Rude Beggars, Rude Beggars, you command, I obey, you, you know, Vernon, dad, dad, every time someone says Rude Beggars, Dan just kind of goes,

Danny C: every time, every time. Well sometimes I do this, I go like this, you know. (Laughing) So. That'll take you back.

Baba: you become influenced to do things that were way out of character for who you used to be, for those listening, just listening, I'm doing air quotes, that thing they tell you not to do. All right. So who you used to be, who you allegedly used to be, and now you are this really extreme version of that person. Is it mind control? Like when does it start becoming mind control? And when, where does the line between mind control and influence exist? So I will go to, we'll go to probably where most of us come from, this idea of brainwashing. Brainwashing was a term that entered the public consciousness in the late 20th century. I believe it was after the Korean War, and certain types of processes that American soldiers were subjected to, to influence their belief structures. And so they might be things like you're in a, you're in this camp, and you don't get that much in the way of rations or cigarettes or things like that, but you get some things. And if you write an essay on the good things about communism, you get a pack of cigarettes. The winner gets a pack of cigarettes. But then they also read the essay over the loudspeakers in the camp. So now they're activating what you would call cognitive dissonance, that you feel this need to be consistent with that thing that you've proclaimed. And this is a real psychological phenomena that's relatively well understood now, or at least relatively well exploited. And so you've got cognitive dissonance, but they didn't do it for like a ton of money or to go free. So they can't be like, well, we did that to go free, because it's like, it's such a paltry reward. You can't say the reward was really the thing that influenced you to do it. So you start to think of yourself in a different way. That's what cognitive dissonance does. It gets you to change the way you think about yourself to further comply with your demonstrated behavior. And that ties into things like social proof and things like that. Now, a lot of these things that I'm talking about now that are brainwashing techniques, right? We just call them advertising now. And if you read Robert Cialdini's influence, "The Psychology of Persuasion," it's all spelled right out. And we see it all the time in internet stuff. Most people don't know that this BS thing I'm about to say as if it's fact is a fact, because it's not a fact, but they just put out this, "Oh, most people don't know." First of all, you'd have no way of knowing whether most people know it. And it's just, but it's a social proof thing. It's a fear of missing out thing. You, though, can get this inside, "You don't want to miss this." You'll be ahead of the pack. You'll be cooler than the rest of them. If you know this latest junk about some pink salt being purported to make you lose 20 pounds in it, like this stuff is out there. And they prey on things scarcity, or this seemingly wired in idea of reciprocity. Well, I gave you something. I kind of expect, you know, I gave you something. You kind of expect that you should give me something back. And that's probably wired in on an evolutionary level. That actually, like people that didn't cooperate enough with the tribe probably had problems furthering their genetic line on to the extent that any of that stuff is genetic. And we can and will have more conversations about that in other conversations. But it brainwashing?

WDG: just jump back to the thing with the cognitive dissonance thing. I mean, some of that, it's like to be, one of that is like verifiable things. And one of that is just like we're afraid of color communists. They're gonna come to get us. And look, they can also brainwash people. So when people believe things, they don't believe them because they believe them. They believe them because they've been manipulated into believing them. And like, maybe that might be true. But then you're also talking like, sort of in like the realm of like the captor thing. Isn't that like a kind of like Stockholm syndrome kind of idea? Like, you know, you start to identify with your captor. And that's not really brainwashing. It's basically just like you've been psychologically broken to such a degree that you don't, the only thing you have is being, the only social interaction you have is being held by a captor who controls all of your stuff. So you start to agree with them.

Baba: Yeah, and what I'm saying though is, is that really than brainwashing? You know, like, so we call it, okay, Stockholm syndrome, you know, but then we have the situation of Patty Hearst. Now Patty Hearst was the daughter of a wealthy, she was like the heiress of a publishing company.

WDG: Yes.

Baba: Yeah, okay. So she was kidnapped by members of the, I didn't actually read the name of this army before. Symbionese Liberation Army. I'll just call it the SLA. I should have actually pronounced that before I read it. And I was like, okay, she's the Liberation Army. She kidnapped by these people, kept in a closet, tortured various ways, including probably what you could imagine. I won't say it to avoid all the money we're making. I don't wanna get too monetized. all kinds of trauma she was subjected to and winds up joining this group, participating in like robberies and things like that, like armed robberies. She's still in jail. Was it her free choice? Now she was a left leaning kind of person. So once you can get away, she thought of it as being choices she was making, even though,

Danny C: was it? Let me interrupt you for a second. So is this post-World War II? This was 1770s. Okay, so I wonder.

WDG: 1740.

Danny C: I'm trying to remember when the Nuremberg trials happened, but I wonder if that had basically set the precedent because that was all about the officers claimed you were just following orders. And what came out of that was like, no, you're still accountable essentially. Like what you did, it's still wrong. You're gonna be punished for that. So along those lines.

Baba: They were actually pretty well, they're pretty shortly after World War II. We're looking at four years.

WDG: Yeah, yeah, they're like right after. Yeah.

Baba: But I mean, you've got, and I don't know at what point. So yeah, there's this idea, okay. So the idea of free will, the idea of you being responsible for the behaviors of your body is sort of baked into legal system because if other people could control you, would you really be responsible for it? And so if you were not in control, you have to provide some kind of defense for why you weren't in control. I was insane. Well, you probably wouldn't say that. Your lawyer would say that. But you know, I was insane. Your honor. I still am. I was insane.

WDG: I think we're all a little insane. I mean, you gotta be somewhere. It's a sliding scale. Again, it's a different thing with advertising at one end, demonic possession at one end. Demonic advertising at one end.

Baba: Is there any other kind? Yeah. Maybe it's not a spectrum so much as it's just a circle. But yeah, so.

WDG: It's a large Ouroboros golden arches situation.

Baba: So back into mind control. Can you be made to do things? Okay, so there's the idea. Can you be made to do things against your will? Can you be covertly programmed to be a different person that the current you doesn't want to be without your consent? And that seems to be, I mean, that's the thing about it being controlled, right? That it's without your consent. That this thing was done to you. And so what I'm gonna suggest is that actually there's a ton of gray as we've already illustrated. Like there's a ton of gray. Because, okay, so the Jedi mind trick that we were talking about. Okay, so why am I still wearing these? Hold on for a second. These are my mind control beads. I meant to.

Danny C: You commit. We need the intermission music from Monty Python, the holy grail.

WDG: Are there technical difficulties? Please stand by. We can do that.

Baba: All right, I don't like technology problems, Jedi mind trick and neuro-linguistic programming and covert influence. Now in a previous conversation, was it the one on the game? Paul of Us. Yes, that we talked about control technologies and things like that. And the idea of programming and covert hypnosis and things like that. And the idea of the thing called the frequency following response. So we're gonna get into the technologies a little bit. The frequency following response and entrainment. So entrainment is basically you, brain reacts in rhythm with external stimuli and kind of syncs up with them. So there's the idea of like brain wane entrainment, for instance. And it largely has to do with rhythm. Although we'll get into the frequency following response. The idea is that when that stuff gets synced up, you can then change the thing that it's synced up to, to change, in this case, the brain. You can change, say, you can, brain can become entrain, there's brain wave entrainment. And then your brain syncs up to a certain type of pulsing and things that are out there. And then if you change that stimulus, you change the behavior of the brain, because it's linked up. In hypnosis, we call that pacing and leading. And Milton Erickson would do that. I was talking about the idea of the moving the finger at the same tempo as the person's breathing, and then changing the tempo of the finger to influence the behavior of the breathing, to relax the person and create what we'll call in this case, a more suggestible state. That's a more problematic phrase than you might think, because we think, well, sometimes we're more suggestible than others. But actually, it turns out we're actually pretty suggestible all the time. And there are certain things that can sort of act as meta suggestions to make us, the suggestion that you're more suggestible might then give you the experience of seeming like you're more suggestible than you were. So one thing, when I'm out promoting hypnosis, some people think that looking you in the eye, if you're a hypnotist, if they look you in the eye, they can hypnotize you. I wish. I just sell cars.

WDG: Really crappy cars.

Baba: Overrated car, over car. Yeah, so, but yeah, so that kind of idea. But if they believe that, then actually that becomes kind of true. I'm gonna say back up and like, don't look me in the eyes, I don't wanna be hypnotized. And I can say something like, how do you know how hypnotized you already are? You know, and it's kind of like, no, I had to do a little language trick. Now, that in and of itself isn't gonna hypnotize somebody just like that. But if they're already convinced that they're under your influence, then you say something that's a sneaky language trick to kind of edge it along. The imagination can take you very far into being what we'll call mind controlled.

WDG: Let's just reel it back for a second. Because there's like something, you're just talking about like, you know, just the idea like, oh, well you can be influenced. Like, we're always very suggestible, like this thing. there's often like chance that people do at events or rallies and stuff like that, often have a meter that's usually like three beats, you know, and those seem to be the most successful ones that people remember, or even like towns when they have like a thing, it'll be like, you know, shop, like whatever, you know, do this, you know, eat, pray, love, like these things like, you know, they always have like a meter of three. It's like, it's like, doop, doop, doop, like it has to have three beats. It's not necessarily three syllables, but the beats need to be right there. So you can easily say, da, da, da, da, you know, like da, da, da, you know, like, and it's like, or like, you know, when you have, say like certain types of like riots or mass hysteria things where people are in groups and, you know, somebody, maybe there's like an organizer or something like that. That's a thing that riles people up and otherwise non-violent people go out and then start committing violence or, is that just, is that influence? Is that like a, not saying it's mind control, but like the behaviors are engaging in it. Typically out of the norms when those things happen, you know, I guess I'm going to like how when we were talking about the Stanford prison experiment, like people really acting completely against their behavior, given the like, giving the like environmental setting, it's like, and like the influence is causing, I don't know, just, it's like, I was just wondering if I, do you think, is that like, there's not technology, that's just like, I don't know, I don't know, I don't know, I don't know, but it's like, but then again, it's like, it's out of your, it's not even part of your identity. Like you're not a person who does these things. And then all of a sudden you are now a person who's doing these, you know, you're kind of like, so it's like, it's very like, is that like, it's like, it's sort of like, I guess I would kind of fall under like almost hypnotic, you know, sort of thing.

Baba: I mean, kind of, right? Cause there's like this, like there's like a group think kind of thing that happens. And it's not just the echo chamber thing, which is another kind of group thing. Yeah. And then you're like, there's a group thing, which is another kind of group think, but there's this emergence factor of, like, you know, birds don't usually crash into each other if they're healthy when they're flying together. I have a predator might crash into a praver. But that's intended. But if there's a flock of birds flying and they're all moving in the same way and they're all, none of them are bumping into each other. We don't seem to do that that well with cars, but, Well, I

WDG: know considering we just have lines, painted lines that would protect you.

Baba: So what turns out, at least the explanation for that is it's this phenomena called emergence. And basically, there are a couple little rules that the group follows. And as long as they follow those little rules, it organizes everything else. So the group becomes self organizing in that regard. And so could be an emergence factor going on with riots and hysteria and things like that. It could also be, I mentioned this like way back when we talked about liminal spaces and how like when other people aren't around or you go to like, like what holds reality together? And is it our rules? And so like when all the rules are suspended, it's like reality itself kind of shifts and becomes malleable. And I'll just mention something we all probably wish we could forget about just five years ago. I won't mention it by name. But something happened in 2020. And the whole social order got shut down. And then when it got rebooted, it was rebooted We'll say it's rebooted differently. I'm not going to say like it didn't come back on right because who knows if it was right before, but like it didn't boot up the same. And like and it's almost like different people have different boots and the whole convenient fiction of the social story fell apart. And it never got rebooted as the same thing again. So like we all live in these like little different worlds. But that also means that if I live in a world where certain things are assumed to be true, my behavior parameters change remarkably because of all right. Well, if everybody's a lizard person that's in control and they really are like doing all these things. But what isn't justified in your behavior? Like because the whole thing

WDG: that you're talking about less about mind control, more about like almost like skit, like sort of like a schizophrenia

Baba: type of other side of mass hysteria. And it's on the other side, mass hysteria is just on the other side of mass programming. Okay, maybe on the other side of propaganda.

WDG: sort of feels like low level mind control to me. But when there's like, you know, when there's like a buzzword that like starts making its way into those like ghost and then it starts repeating itself over and over as particularly on what it's also usually constructed within the framework of like news, you know, whether that's online journalism, television news. But then I always find it really odd when I then start hearing my parents this word that's like, this is not something that would be in your work. And it's just weird. And like, you know, you'll see people will like for comedy sakes will do like the super cuts of the different people saying like something that's really bizarre. And then like and then it just becomes a thing. And it's just like and it's like, oh, so so it's either like either does this. Does one person just figure out how to like, you know, basically this is a great thing. It'll play well with like and be picked up and it'll worm its way through. Or is it just like a phenomenon that happens? Because if the first one then that kind of is sort of mind control in a very low level way. It's not just advertisement because it's not just like one person selling one product. It kind of works its way. And then the culture starts, you know, mind controlling.

Danny C: I'll weigh in on this. OK, so. In my in my daily role and I don't want to get into specifics, but in my daily role, things with PR and marketing are very specific and they're done, they're thought out, they're very intentional about what is said and what is not said. And I believe based on my experience that those types of things that you're seeing, it's like an attempt to cut through the noise and gain traction. And sometimes it works and we see like the mass pickup and sometimes it doesn't. But I think it's all very deliberate, all very well crafted and well thought out before it's actually released to the public.

Baba: Well, and when you think about language. Man, see, there's so much to unpack with this because we think about language. When I say something's hard, there's a hard thing to do. That's a metaphor. It's not hard is a physical kinesthetic experience. If I say something's difficult to grasp. That's a metaphor. How do you grasp something that isn't tangible? Like how do you literally grasp something that is an idea? It's a metaphor. And so some people think everybody will debate everything. Some people think that. The world out there, we first were moving around in this world. We made noises to describe things out there in this physical world because we're evolving, you know, and eventually these things become. Codified that we have words, rock, tree, tiger. Don't know why those three. Those are the ones. There's your three beats. So we start this thing. OK, but then we start talking about experiences that we're having in our heads and we start to use the same words. Now when we're going back to Robert Cialdini again, influence on the psychology of persuasion. If I'm drinking a warm beverage. You are going to perceive me most likely. OK, there are always statistical anomalies. Most likely you're going to perceive me as a warmer person. If I asked you to review something and it's on heavy paper. You're going to give it heavier weight in substance. The metaphors carry over. And so there are certain words that we hear that produce a certain state in us, a feeling, an emotional state. And we can use those words, not us, because we're ethical and kind. We can use those words can be used. Subscribe now. Hold that mug up real quick with the warm beverage. As you focus on the warm feeling spreading throughout you now, I wonder if you might just go ahead and click that subscribe button.

WDG: Yeah, I was thinking the the back into like the weird stuff, though, like let's say that. So what about like, like we've talked about like the things you can do in dreams. cultural, you know, context and and also specific language, because like, you know, I mean, like, like something like you're saying, OK, grasp the concept. It's like, well, OK, like you understand those words, you know, they mean like if you didn't really thought someone else might use a whole different, you know, like, you know, it's just like if you're speaking a different language and this doesn't have cultural meaning to you, you know, it's like, like, I might not have the same kind of vibe. So it's like, it's like almost feel like I guess it's like universal in a sense, but it can't be like universally applicable, like, like, like weird terms, like they said, like make it into the zeitgeist in like, yeah, you know, either the United States or like primarily English speaking countries or, you know, Western countries. It's like that might not have the same impact in somewhere else, like, you know, in like Japan or say or something like that. They might be like, yeah, this means nothing to me. It's like this is this like, like when it gets translated in doesn't make sense. You know, I mean, we've all had I think, Chris, you know, the experience in like in no in anime, you know, you're watching something and it's like, well, I don't really understand like that means because it has some kind of particular cultural context. And it's like funny and it's like, but I don't get it. Like, you know,

Danny C: it's interesting, though, other things do carry over across across different cultures. So, for instance, you know, we're on vacation just, you know, a few weeks ago and then the floor 13 was non existent in our hotel. OK, now in shoot, I want to say China, I could be wrong. They have the same superstition around the number four because the word for four is very similar to the word death or death or something like that. So and I can't say for sure because I've never been there, but they practice a very similar thing where like floor four is missing from the elevators.

Baba: Interesting. I didn't know it's in Japan. The word Shin is for there's they're actually. I believe they're two different numbers for the. I think there are two different words for the the number four in in Japanese, but Shin is one of them. And that's the word for for death. Yeah, as in Shinigami, death gods or Reapers.

WDG: don't know if it's from M.K. Ultra or something that was in like was a project like Stargate or something like that, where they actually thought like you might not. It's not just remote, remote viewing, but like you can like invade someone's dream and implant an idea there. So then it's like some it's like it's even more subconscious. So it's like, oh, like, you know, I have this and if you do it repeatedly, you know, it's like that's that's that's that's definitely a little more in

Baba: the direction of the Stargate type stuff, which for those listening was a essentially the the U.S. government did a bunch of research on psychic warfare and let

Danny C: me let me interrupt you for one second. Has that has it been declassified or is this alleged?

Baba: Actually, a lot of it's declassified. OK, go on. Probably the part that happened after it was quote unquote defunded. That part's probably alleged. Oh, it went somewhere else. It's a different name. You know, it doesn't exist anymore. This is a good summary. I mean, both M.K. Ultra and the. The Stargate stuff, which has nothing to do with like nothing to do with movies or whatever. Unless we want to get into all the weird stuff and the guy that's the anyway, we'll do stuff later. That was probably that was probably separate, but there was this big psychic warfare, psychic espionage thing, remote viewing stuff that was done, which we will have to talk about at some point. But it's like that's its own wide ranging because all these things spread out like we didn't even talk about M.K. Ultra. But that's usually where people start with this. And we didn't talk about. So, I mean, you've got the idea of the the Manchurian candidate. And can you sufficiently create a separate personality in a person such that you can train them to be an assassin for political purposes and then have them completely forget about it? But that they just don't know that all that other stuff existed. And you can see from a shady government perspective why something like that might be useful. there's a guy named George Estabrooks, who was a big. Participate participants in the M.K. Ultra project, which was not like one thing. It was lots of little project kind of grouped up. So was it like also like

WDG: jostling people with LSD and trying to see what happened?

Baba: It was subjecting people to horrible traumas. See earlier note on Patty Joe Hirst or Patty Campbell Hirst and the traumas. And can you use trauma to make someone more suggestible slash programmable? Yes. Yes, you got. Yes. People will do it because it's how cults work. It's one of the ways cults work because there's a lot of stuff going on there. Cult programming. All right, so the idea I got to just close a couple of loops that haven't technically been opened, opened. You are not more suggestible if you're less intelligent. In fact, hypnosis, when people go into hypnosis, oftentimes people with higher IQs, higher intelligence as we measure it, are actually very good hypnotic subjects because it's generally speaking, it's not something that happens to you. It's a skill you develop and you participate with the hypnotist.

Danny C: So if you identify as being unable to be hypnotized, what does that say about you? Yes, right. Right.

Baba: You can say I refuse. It's not good. Yeah. And you'll probably succeed unless it's one of these other forms. OK. Now, we've talked about some things.

WDG: Nobody listening to this is not suggestible hypnosis. Everybody listening to this is very smart.

Baba: Very intelligent and very. We're definitely not here. They found a place here together as an oxytocin spreads through your body. That feeling of togetherness that we have. But actually, it's actually the tangent I was about to go on, which is directly related to this. And it actually ties back to the video game thing. If you can use technology to create a neurochemical state in a person and you can frame the narrative such that it is logical to proceed in such a way because you've been given good reasons. People love being given reasons to do things. It's the magic because that we can talk about very briefly in a second is actually pretty easy to influence people. It's not always easy to influence. It's not always easy to get them into the state you want because first impressions matter. And there are people that are going to see me that will run for the hills immediately. And there are people that will see me that because of markers that I have are going to say that guy is a person like me. idea that is a person like me, this the sense of rapport that we get with another person is a really big matter of influence, which is so it's there's this idea of people that are similar to me. They're like me and I have it right. And they do, too. Although a lot of people have this idea that they're kind of faking it and they feel like everybody else kind of has a clue. And they don't have a clue when the truth is everybody's faking it.

WDG: So, yeah, all this stuff is made up. Everything being made up now that gets into a whole different.

Baba: It depends what you mean by made up. But yes, so but if you because we're getting into the technology end of it and can you control people's minds with technology because the answer is kind of OK. Because if you can get entrainment, if you can get people using other using certain means, if you can get them to be entrained to your technology, if you can produce emotional states in them with technological means or using tried and true methods like talking in a certain tone. Is going to produce a certain state. Because if I start talking in an excited angry manner, you're more likely to go there. That's kind of the same thing. It ties in with mirror neurons. If if I am watching a sport. Which I wouldn't be, but if I were watching a sport which I played, which is the reason I would let's say I'm watching football and I played football. I'm going to have a greater experience of enjoying that and being engaged in it because I have what's called mirror neurons, which basically means I look at those people having that experience on the field and because I've had that experience, I have a greater degree to hallucinate that for myself in the present be there for be engaged in that experience. Well, that's something that's a natural human capacity. So I and this is something that hypnotist will utilize, too, that I will. I'll pace and lead different things and then I'll go into hypnosis while I'm talking to the person. And there's the natural capacity to follow into what we call hypnosis, this so-called suggestible state. But if I can do that, OK, like maybe we couldn't do it with a video game before, but what about a virtual reality video game? What about a video game your your galvanic skin response and your sweat? And it it knows how engaged you are and it can react to it. And reinforce you. So you're talking about like we have really, really sophisticated technology on the edge being fully out there.

WDG: we try about hypnosis and like you can correct certainly correct me if I'm wrong about this. But like the hypnosis is largely a cooperative and voluntary thing. Like you most people want to be hypnotized for whatever, you know, like they want to like, something about themselves or improve something or solve a problem, you know, whatever that is. like these sort of therapeutic standpoint, as far as like mind control stuff. I feel like the question always comes out to you was like. The people that want this, what's what is it? What is it? Are they like that afraid of of society that they're that they, you know, it's like like like it's like what happened to them? Right. They're trying to do it because as far as like, you know, like building a mentoring candidate or something like that, that just is just like a I mean, it's like a fear thing. Right. It's just like a because like I'm sure any government can probably find some person who would just do the thing that they want them to do because they to do that. You don't need to a secret person. They'll just you'll find that you I'm sure if you look hard enough, you'll find a volunteer that meets your criteria like, you know, without without a lot of extra stuff like as far as like sneaking in and getting other people's secret information through like, you know, like like remote viewing or something like that. I feel like that's a whole

Baba: like sharks with lasers on their desk.

WDG: it's like an over engineering a problem that's really not that hard to do. You know,

Danny C: yeah, it's enough greenbacks out. It'll take care of.

Baba: Yeah, that's the thing. Actually, a lot of this stuff is a lot easier to solve than all this high technology would really require. And and the thing is so when it comes to and like kind of one of the interesting takeaways when it comes to being influenced is this notion of the yes set. And salespeople will know this as if you get somebody to say yes three times, then you can get them to buy your product three times again. It's three times again, which seems to just be a thing for people like the magic number three seems to kind of be a thing. I think it's like there's one there's two would happen again. Three pattern.

WDG: OK, well, that's how we find data like, you know, data is a set of three right before it's.

Baba: Yeah. And so. this idea. One of my hypnosis teachers said it like this. Compliance precedes suggestibility. And what that means in the way he meant it is that if you can get somebody to do things. For you to comply with your requests or commands, they tend to continue doing it. It's a yes set. You get them go in in a given pattern. They tend to continue in that pattern. And so. So when if if I were trying to covertly influence you, I'm going to do it in a somewhat obvious manner now. But if I were trying to covertly influence you, I'd want to get you to comply with something I'm doing. But I'm not going to be like. Place your hands out in front of you and lock your fingers down. Because what I'm clearly doing something there, you know, but I can I can be like. I just wait a minute. Just stop. All right. Listen. Listen, take a breath and freaking listen. To what I have to say, all right. Now, consider this. Well, what was that? I don't need to stop. I told you to listen. I told you to take a breath. I told you to consider this. And you kind of have to do those things in order to be cooperating with the conversation. Now, I've got some kind of angry tone. It wasn't my problem as the guy that's saying all this, like. But we see the like, OK, so. You'll see this in advertisement all the time, Imagine being on a beach. What? What? That's a first step. You imagine being on a beach. Imagine how good it would feel to have virtual assistance making money for you while you earn money, or whatever. You know, like this kind of thing, like it's imagine this. Feel that. Think about this. Do that. So listeners. Pay attention. As you're out there in the world, pay attention when people are trying to get you to comply. Just be aware of it because awareness sort of sort of breaks it a little bit. It puts you back at choice. It takes you out of inertia and somewhat back at choice. And and I think that is where. Well, we think of as mind control. You know, if you can get the chemicals going in a person's body and you can get the story in their head. And you can get enough buy in by using tricks that are that are somewhat hardwired in the human neurology. You can achieve something like mind control. But it's definitely not that you thing. However, there technology that exists, probably can't do what people it can do, called voice to skull technology. And using something called the fray effect, F R E Y for anyone that wants to do their own research. The fray effect is basically where you can use microwaves, which are like radio waves. We think of them as being things that cook things, but they do. But, you know, they're they're like radio waves. You can send information on them. And so fray effects can be used to directly cause sounds to occur inside of the human That is basically it's causing parts of the brain to vibrate rapidly to sounds terrible, to these microwaves being beamed into them in a way that produces sound in the ear, but seems to be coming from inside the head. And people outside of those people can't hear those sounds. So they think they're having these voices talking in their head. That's the idea. OK, now, in all likelihood, to be able to produce the amount of energy needed to do it, you'd actually need a fairly large device to do this to be able to do it intelligibly. And then so what? They've got voices in their head. I have stupid voices in my head. I've got one particular one I love to completely remove from my head forever. This is twenty twenty five people. Three guesses. Put it in the comments. What's that voice? So those voices aren't going to make you do things. But when you take into consideration things like gaslighting and things like that and getting people to think they're going crazy or putting weird ideas over and over in people's heads, like this would have to be a really long campaign. Go back to the note earlier about it's easy just to pay somebody to do most of these things.

WDG: And also don't be that person that does this look like maybe you think about that something is wrong with you.

Baba: Yeah, yeah. If you're hearing. If you're hearing. Should I be giving a PSA? Maybe I'm not the one to give this warning. Maybe someone that seems more sane in our.

WDG: If you feel the need to mind control people, might be a bridge too far that you've crossed.

Danny C: This would have been a good moment to like bring up an animated version of the logo and have the logo like to give that PSA.

WDG: Yeah. Yeah.

Baba: When we go into time machines, we'll get back to that. to skull technology does exist. It's probably not as good as those folks fear. But like listen to everything I said in this already. Like you probably have better ways of influencing people to do things than beaming microwaves into their brain. Like this was the stuff that was this was 1970s stuff. You know, look at Star Trek. OK, they didn't even think of the communicator having a picture on it like it was a walkie talkie. So it's like. The ideas of what's emerged with technology is beyond what was thought of in a lot of ways then. And behind what was thought of in a lot of ways that I'll point you to back to the future, back to the time machine reference. this kind of idea, though, of campaigns that are based on preferences that you exhibit by, I don't know, hypothetically speaking, tapping or clicking on things or watching things or downloading things or. We're all much more influenceable. Now. Then our counterparts in the 70s. Mind control technology or not in, you know, trademark, you know, register, I don't know, whatever. We're more influenceable now because we've filled out these. Anyone grew up in the 80s might remember slam books and filling out all your preferences. You got a question at the top of the page. It's like, what's your favorite color? What's your favorite animal? Because that's about where it was with these things. And you just go through and you fill them all out. And you know, people do that now, you know, fill out all these things and find out which Harry Potter house you belong in or what. What? I don't know.

WDG: I'm without real pop culture. It sounds like a good place to do. Do you give it some ranking? Yeah, give it some.

Danny C: We do that. I actually have a fun thought. So sure. If you wanted to. So if you wanted to alter, if you want to mind control a single person, OK, we've decided, you know, essentially that, you know, throw money at the problem. You know, that's probably the best way, the most efficient way to do it. Yeah. OK. So what if you wanted to mind control like at a massive scale? How would you do that? What would be the best way to go doing the best way to do that as opposed to like throwing a bunch of money at it? What would you Is it already being I was

WDG: just I was just I was just saying, yeah, I mean, I like it depends your outcome. Like, like what do you want to happen? Do you want like, you know, well, I would say, like, depending how crazy you want to make things, you find preexisting cultural like flashpoints and you use, I don't know, like massive social media campaigns to push on them. Might be looking at you. Meta, you know, and what you have done in other countries, you know, it's like and you can cause a lot of bad things to happen, you know, in order to just when your end goal really seems to be. Sell advertising space to company, but your your inadvertent outcome is cause severe cultural harm and damage, you know, like, you know. But I think that's that would be like more of the thing that I would think of as mind control is just like if there's a preexisting. I mean, that's why we have, you know, like hot, you know, like wedge issues and things like that, you know, because they're easy to like, it's easy to us be them. Things and then and then once that's there, you just push that a little bit more and harder. And then I guess like, but it depends if that's in line with like your what your outcome is, you know, because we know, like, necessary exists. We know these things like happen like we know like these are phenomenal. And that occur like so it's like these things happen. So I think like as far as a group, but if like your goal is just like. I don't know, I guess, I don't know, some kind of weird cultural compliance. They're going to then depending on big the culture is it's going to that it's going to be really hard to just I think just have a net, you know, because it's like because I think the best mind control on a large scale is disruptive, you know, and not compliant in the same way. That

Baba: Yeah, if you think about old technology and getting people in on things, because actually, like a lot of this stuff that we would talk about, like propaganda and stuff, they're talking about in Plato's Republic about making stories that encourage people to be a certain way to grow up with certain virtues so that they're better members in your society.

WDG: But see, again, that only works for so long and it often works better when you have another religion that's against you.

Baba: Yeah, well, actually, the us versus them thing is. And there is I don't know of a better way to influence a person's behavior than by leveraging their identity, who they think of themselves as being. That's at the core of cognitive dissonance. It's it's. Being consistent with the person they act as, but it's also about sometimes you have to change your identity or rather if you change your identity, it's one of the best ways to change your behavior. Those that want to look into that more check out atomic habits by James clear and all of his stuff on. sorry, I'm getting blown up by my stupid government surveillance device. Apparently, people are sending pictures from another continent right now and have to let me know about it. See what I mean? I don't even pay attention to these things. I can't focus. All right.

Danny C: Things on the books will be in the description on the website. We'll put them out for you.

Baba: Help yourselves, people. James Clear, Atomic Habits, Ivenity. It will change your life.

Danny C: Bob, let's stick with you. Start the start the rating system.

Baba: Three rutabagas, three three monsters. I don't think it. Well, I think it's more scary that everybody else is walking. All right, here's my deal. Here's my take on it. Do I think mind control is real? It depends. It depends what you mean by mind and control. But I think actually, yeah, there is. We are far more influenced than we realize. And a lot of the decisions we make, we don't make them for the reasons we think we are. But I'm not sure if that qualifies as mind control in the way most people think about it. So I do think it exists. And I think it I do think it has a pretty heavy influence. I think advertisers have gotten really good at pulling our strings. And so have people that depend on those advertisers. And so we've gotten really good at it and dangerously good at it and probably will get even more dangerously good at it with the advent of more advanced AI and peripherals. So am I scared of it? I'm more scared of. The people that are trying to get them to do certain things when they're when they are. They're trying to get them to buy stuff. I'm less scared of that than if trying to get them don't know, overthrow a Guatemalan government. I'm referring to Ed Bernays right now, throwing back to the propaganda thing, a little Easter egg for those who know who Ed Bernays is. So I influence campaigns have been used to throw overthrow governments, you know. And so that's scary. It's it's scary when you get people to act against their best interests. I think that's scary. I'm not really scared of somebody controlling my mind from afar using technology. I think my level of paranoia around it probably acts as a little bit of a buffer, but I know I'm not beyond influence campaigns either for sure. And so so, yeah, I'm going to give it. I think I'm going to give it three monsters. It definitely has potential to be really bad. Give it time.

WDG: Just aside, just aside, just something about advertising identity, things like that, there might be something else, too, that's not just like those things might be more like identity driven than just manipulative. Like you can make the association like, you know, like you're talking about the for orange juice popular as a breakfast, you know, kind of a drink, you know, it's like that kind of idea. It's like, but that's a lots of time and cultural context and not just a and the availability of cheap orange juice everywhere, you know, like it has to be ever, you know, it's like, but like, but some advertisement is already like you already have to have a certain identity in there for it. It's even worked. That's why I think like targeted advertisement, like, you know, works better or like, you know, or pre-existing cultural things that you can push on buttons. Because like, for instance, like, not going to be very effective if I'm getting advertisements to buy a McLaren, like I cannot afford a McLaren. I'm not that I'm not, you know, an automobile type person, really not, but it's like, but also like, it's just not something I ever really desire. I don't think it's like, but like, if I'm a person that already wants something like that, and I need to, I want to show you the type of person I am through the things I like, you know, a certain like, like, it's like peacocking kind of idea. You know, like, I want to like show the world, this is the person I am. I'm a person who likes very high end over engineered luxury sports cars that I want to drive on a road, you know, like, particularly one with like a bunch of potholes, I guess, because I don't care about destroying it or something. You know, it's like, it's like, whereas like, you know, it's like, there's a, you know, it's kind of like, I'm, I'm, I'm telling a story to the world about me through this thing, and their advertisement might have some influence on me, but I more likely would have to like, it wouldn't have the influence on like me, but unless they already had a pre existing notion for something like that. So some advertisement just isn't can't just be purely vibes, it already has to be set up for like, you know, a person like, like, clearly, we see lots of drug ads for sicknesses we don't have, right? We're not going that we're not gonna be really swayed by and I think that's why sometimes people go, why are there so many drug ads? They're so annoying, because it's like, because a lot of them are for specific illnesses, and that might be useful for people who have those illnesses or targeted to them, but not everybody has, you know, insert whatever problem this drug is going to solve. You know, it's not a universal thing, you already have to have something that's there for you to grasp onto to get to it. So it's like, so it does have that kind of weird, like, identity, you know, like, you know, thing, like, you know, to, for it to like, work its way, you know, work its way, you know, and I guess, but yeah, well, just like, this is just something I want to mention before we wrap up. But yeah, the mind control. Yeah. Um, I don't know. I don't think I think like, obviously, hypnosis and things exist, like those types of things. They can work. I don't think it's like, I think, obviously, advertisement, but as far as classical, like, get in your mind, mind control, like, you know, turn you into something you don't want to do, like, I don't know, I'm pretty skeptical about that. I feel like a lot of that's like the I don't think it's that scary, like, it's not as scary as like, advertisement is, you know, so it's like, I don't think it's like, I think it's just like, there's other things that you can do. Like, there's other easier ways to do those. And it doesn't feel like, you know, I probably more scared of the boogeyman than of I don't think I'm going to become a man, true you to accommodate or like of secret ninja or, you know, like, like, you know, those things don't feel right to me. I feel like, as far as like, the concept is interesting, but it's not really that, that scary, because I just think you have to be like, you know, it's like, it's just general stuff that's happening all the time, you know, group think and things like that. So I'll give it one monster, you know, there's a, if

Baba: you want to become a ninja, and are interested in mind control, I would recommend ninja mind control secrets by Ashida Kim.

WDG: I'm

Danny C: sorry. It's interesting hearing both your takes on this. So, with our with our conversation, I'm going to redefine mind control as anything you you you doing something that either you are not aware that you've do it that who take two. I'm going to define mind control as a person doing something that they either don't want to do or they have no memory doing. And for me, I think that is incredibly terrifying. You know, from my story at the very beginning, just like doing something even though it was like harmless, you know, but having no recollection of it. And then likewise, you know, you're, you know, different different drugs that can inhibit your ability to create memories and stuff like that. It's just it's just terrifying to me. Obviously, real on some level, I think you pair propaganda with this, I think it becomes, you know, just awful. And I, yeah, I'm going to give this like four and a half monsters. I think, you know, the possibilities that on a single layer on a single level rather, it's going to be simpler. Like we said, you know, pay someone to do something. But I feel like, you know, you can get anyone to do anything with enough money, you know, and it could be blackmail could be extortion, you know, group of people same thing. I mean, it's just, I don't know, I think it'd be terrifying. So while I don't necessarily believe it, you know, the way that we described it, you know, with the swirling black and white spiral or something like that. Yeah, I would definitely not agree in that being a real thing. But as far as what could be done on the most simplest terms of mind control, it's terrifying. So yeah, four and a half monsters.

Baba: You guys going to become ninja secret ninjas?

WDG: How would I know? That's the thing.

Baba: How do you know how much of a ninja you already are?

WDG: Yeah, I might already you may already be a secret. That's the book I'm writing. were

Danny C: talking about mass hysteria and she was the other term groupthink. Maybe think of this. And this little follow up would be the Mothman because that involves some really, really good tie ins. Yes.

Baba: Yeah. And also like, Lady of Fatima. I mean, they're like some weird like mass UFO sightings. People, keep your minds. Remember to be at choice. Give yourself good advice. And if you get in charge of mind control stuff, use it for good.