EP 12: The Legend of the Headless Horseman and Sleepy Hollow

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In this spine-tingling episode of the Wondering Monsters Podcast, hosts Danny C, WDG, and Baba saddle up to explore one of America's most enduring ghost stories: The Legend of Sleepy Hollow and its terrifying rider, the Headless Horseman. Blending humor, history, and folklore, the trio dives deep into Washington Irving's classic tale, its European and global influences, and why the image of a headless specter continues to haunt our imaginations.

Revisiting Sleepy Hollow

The discussion begins with Danny C admitting his fascination with the Headless Horseman, a story that captures the same tragic pull as the sinking of the Titanic. Though he never read the original text, he recounts the key events of Irving's short story and the Disney adaptation: Ichabod Crane, a superstitious schoolteacher, arrives in the ghost-obsessed town of Sleepy Hollow, where he competes with the brawny Brom Bones for the affection of the wealthy Katrina Van Tassel. After a fateful party filled with ghost stories, Ichabod rides home and encounters the mysterious headless rider. By dawn, Ichabod has vanished, a shattered saddle and a pumpkin left behind at the bridge.

The hosts note how the Disney version closely mirrors Irving's tale, even as it lightens the tone. The central mystery, was the Horseman real, or just Brom Bones' cruel prank? … keeps the story timelessly unsettling. WDG recalls reading it in school and points out the historical context: Sleepy Hollow was inspired by a real Dutch settlement near Tarrytown, New York, and the Headless Horseman was said to be the ghost of a Hessian soldier decapitated by a cannonball during the Revolutionary War.

History Meets Haunting

The group explores how Washington Irving weaved local folklore, war memories, and Gothic influences into his writing. During his youth, Irving spent time in the Hudson Valley to escape a yellow fever outbreak in New York City, hearing tales of hauntings and Hessian ghosts that later inspired his fiction. Later, in Europe, he mingled with literary greats like Mary Shelley and Lord Byron, influences that helped him merge European ghost traditions with American history. The result was a uniquely American myth steeped in both fear and humor.

WDG explains that legends of headless riders predate Irving, appearing across Celtic, Irish, and Welsh folklore. Figures such as the Irish dullahan, a terrifying horseman who carries his own head and wields a whip made from a human spine, were omens of death. Similar stories existed in Scotland and Northern Europe, often portraying spectral riders as messengers between the worlds of the living and the dead. Irving's creation, then, is part of a long lineage of ghostly equestrians that symbolize mortality and the thin veil between life and death.

The Evolution of the Horseman

From Irving's short story to Disney's animated version and Tim Burton's gothic film Sleepy Hollow (1999), the Headless Horseman has galloped through countless retellings. Baba praises Burton's adaptation for expanding the myth, particularly the idea that witchcraft summoned the Horseman. This is a clever narrative twist on the Hessian soldier's decapitation. The hosts even muse on other classic stories that could benefit from a supernatural reimagining, joking about a version of Phantom of the Opera where Christine is a witch summoning the Phantom's ghost to take revenge on her rivals.

Interestingly, the group confirms that a real grave marker exists for an unknown Hessian soldier in Sleepy Hollow's Old Dutch Church cemetery, suggesting Irving's ghostly creation may have real roots. The hosts also note that Washington Irving himself eventually returned to live in the area, purchasing land from the Van Tassel family and building his estate, Sunnyside. The man who immortalized a haunted valley spent his later years peacefully within it.

Global and Modern Headless Myths

Moving beyond Sleepy Hollow, WDG and Baba trace other headless legends. They describe medieval tales of blemmies — headless humanoid creatures with faces in their chests once thought to inhabit distant lands. They discuss cephalophoric saints, such as Saint Denis, who allegedly carried his severed head while preaching a final sermon. Danny C can't resist imagining a Monty Python-style sketch of talking saints conducting business meetings, adding levity to the macabre lore.

WDG also introduces the Japanese headless rider myths, born from post–World War II motorcycle culture. In these stories, spectral bikers (victims of fatal accidents or decapitation) race through mountain roads, their black helmets making them appear headless. Sometimes entire gangs of ghostly riders appear, their floating heads screaming as they chase travelers. These modern legends echo the same eerie archetype: the restless spirit who cannot rest until reunited with a lost head.

Ghost Rules and the Psychology of Fear

Throughout the conversation, the hosts return to a recurring segment they call Ghost Rules which are the patterns and constraints that govern supernatural entities. For the Headless Horseman, the rules are clear: he is bound to his burial ground, cannot cross water, and rides only during the witching hour. Such limitations, they note, mirror other paranormal lore from vampires' aversion to garlic and crosses, to the invitation rule of black-eyed children. These constraints, Danny C muses, may reflect humanity's need to impose order on chaos, even within our fears.

Baba expands the discussion to the symbolism of headlessness itself. Unlike claws or fangs, a missing head is not a natural threat as it represents something profoundly unnatural and tied to death. WDG suggests that this taps into the Uncanny Valley effect: our discomfort with something that looks human but is disturbingly wrong. A headless figure occupies the eerie space between life and death, familiar and alien and a psychological fear that transcends culture.

Modern Reflections and Monster Ratings

As the episode winds down, the hosts rate the Headless Horseman's scariness. Baba gives it three and a third monsters. Scary, but not the worst thing you could summon. Danny C, despite his affection for the story, finds the concept too cartoonish to terrify him, scoring it a two. WDG, however, imagines being chased by a ghostly horseman down a dark country road and insists that would be terrifying, awarding a solid four monsters.

The hosts joke about capitalizing on the Horseman by turning him into a supernatural enforcer for underperforming employees or perhaps summoning him to haunt their enemies. Beneath the laughter, though, lies genuine appreciation for how this centuries-old legend still rides strong in our collective imagination. From folklore to pop culture, from Celtic omens to Japanese bikers, the Headless Horseman endures as a symbol of restless spirits, human fear, and the strange beauty of the supernatural.

In the end, Wondering Monsters Podcast reminds listeners that whether you believe in ghosts or not, every monster tells us something about ourselves — about what we fear, what we long for, and how we make meaning out of the dark. As Baba quips, You can't reason with a headless man. Maybe that's why the Horseman keeps riding.

Links from the Show

• Why are Graveyards SO Scary?
• Mothman and a Horrific Bridge Collapse
• Is Bloody Mary Real?
• Intriguing History of REAL Zombies
• Unlocking Dream Potential: What's Possible and What's Not

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Licensing Information

• Title: Entry of the Gladiators
• Composer: Julius Fučík
• Library of Congress (Public Domain)
• Podcast theme song version edited/arranged/mixed by Dan Swift

Unless indicated, images appear in their original form.

The following images were generated using AI from MyNinja.ai, NightCafe, lenso.ai, Gemini, or ChatGPT

Transcription

*Transcription was automatically generated and may contain errors.

(Music)

Danny C: It's good to see the head on all of your shoulders today.

WDG: Yes.

Baba: Yeah. It's good to get a head start on our little conversation here. All right. Let's not get ahead of ourselves.

WDG: All right.

Baba: All right.

WDG: So who wants to take the reins as it were?

Baba: Yes. Take the reins. You want to take the reins on this one? I'm going to drive it right to its... That's not Mothman.

Danny C: I can start it. Headless Horseman. Interesting. So I love the story of the Headless Horseman. There are certain stories that are out there that's just like ... like Titanic. And for whatever reason, the story of Titanic, the tragedy of it, just like really resonates with me. It's just an awful, awful story. But like I'm so fascinated and intrigued by it. Almost an unhealthy obsession with it. And I think that Headless Horseman kind of falls in that same category with me. It's just like such a cool, cool story. So old. In my head, very, very original. Ironically, I've never actually read the book or read the short story though. So most of my understanding...

WDG: I thought you were supposed to read that before this podcast.

Danny C: No, no. I'll tell you what I did do. I'll tell you what I did do. I asked... I asked ChatGPT to give me a summary off that. So even right now, my understanding might be a little bit flawed, but we'll see what I do.

WDG: I think it's actually, I think, it falls into the short story.

Danny C: It is. It is. Oh, this is funny. This is funny. When I originally asked for a summary of the Legend of Sleepy Hollow by... I said Irving Berlin.

WDG: No, that's a totally different version of this.

Danny C: And it corrected me as Irving Berlin, you know, as a composer, blah, blah, blah. It's like do you mean Washington.

WDG: I'm dreaming of a white Christmas where there's... Yes.

Danny C: I don't know. That'd be a fun crossover, you know.

Baba: And not unrelated to the scary time of year that we're entering into. The old Christmas started at Halloween.

Danny C: Interesting. I also did not know that.

Baba: That's the Tales of Ghost stories that you hear in Christmas carols. We'll talk about that when it's time for our scary Christmas time. We can't get ahead of ourselves on such a tale of horror.

Danny C: So in reading the summary, basically the animated Disney version and the short story, they seem to track fairly closely. Basically, Ichabod Crane, he arrives in Sleepy Hollow, he's a schoolmaster. He's very superstitious. And the town is very embracing of ghosts. They love the ghost story, that kind of thing. Ichabod Crane is at odds with this guy, Bron Bones. I forget his actual name, but he goes by Bron Bones in the short story as well. And they're competing basically for the affection of...

Baba: Katrina Van Tassel.

Danny C: That's the one. Okay.

Baba: It should be said like that.

Danny C: It should be. Every time. So they're both competing for her attention. There ends up being this Halloween party. And at this party, he's trying to win her affection. And he has some kind of conversation with her. We don't know the details of the conversation, according to ChatGPT. It specifically says that. We get the impression that she turns him down. She's not interested in him. Around the same time, Bron Bones starts up this tale of the headless horseman. his head to a cannon. He haunts, I guess, the forest or whatever. Cutscene. Ichabod Crane is going home. Now, this is where the book and the... I'm sorry, the short story and the animated version differ. According to ChatGPT, in the short story, Ichabod is riding through the forest at night. And there is what's presumably the headless horseman kind of keeping pace with him. Just kind of riding slowly. They're riding together. Ichabod tries talking to him. The horseman doesn't say anything. Ichabod eventually gets to the bridge. He turns around. The horseman throws an object at Ichabod Crane. It hits him, I think, on the shoulder. Ichabod falls off. The next day, a pumpkin is found at the bridge. Ichabod is never heard from again. And then from that, it's alluded that it was Bron Bones, was actually the horseman. Ichabod actually went somewhere else and became a lawyer, I think, and lived happily ever after. According to the Disney version, had many kids and also enjoys very, very big meals. Which he was very fond of. Very fond of food.

WDG: I think I had to read this in grade school? Was that something like that?

Baba: It has to be cool stuff in grade school.

WDG: Yeah, so there was like, you know, the soldier was a Hessian soldier. Yes. Because in the area, Irving says it's Sleepy Hollow, but it wasn't called Sleepy Hollow just actually at that time. It's basically like whatever town outside of Tarrytown, you know, like in New York, in Westchester, New York. when he's at the party, two people tell stories about the Headless Horseman. First, it's an older man. He talks about another guy who couldn't, like, he was trying to get away and the horseman got him. And then like, they find something in the river or whatever. It's skeleton or something like that. initially Irving frames before people tell the story, he talks about the myth of the horseman. He talks about all the different ghosts and goblins type stories because this town, which is like a Dutch settlement, and it was like, at that time, historically also, like that area was like had problems with Hessians and things like that during the Revolutionary War. And this is like, right, like, Sleepy Hollow takes place like right after it's like 1790 something, right? Even though Irving wrote it in like 1820, you know, it's like it's that time period is that where it's like when he was actually living there as a teenager, you know, like that time. So it's like, but the and then like, but the horseman sometimes it was like it was supposed to be like he raced out from the graveyard and across the valleys, and then he raced back before the sunset to get back to his because his body is tied there. So it was like, it was like he's out looking for the head that he lost from apparently like a cannonball shot or whatever. And then like, after he does that. Bron Bones' story talks about how he like raced the horseman like he was so good, he decided to challenge race. And like and like and then and that's where he also brings up like they bring up the bridge part because initially, they don't talk about that they just say he's like bound to the cemetery, right? So you can get away and far enough. And the sunsets, I guess, like, because it's like they're in the like witching hour, you know, that like whatever 12 to three, you know, it's like, as long as your ghost can't do stuff. So, um, I'd like to bring up a new segment. Ghost rules. The rules. Okay. Like, like any time we talk about ghosts, we have to talk about the general ghost rule. So so so there's like the headman swordsman is bound to his body and then like then when Bron Bones tells the story, he's bound to like he can't cross the bridge. And that's like part that makes it into the Disney thing. They don't usually talk about him being bound to the cemetery, you know, right? the little thing about Ichabod getting becoming a lawyer or something, it's still like supposed to be kind of vague because it's like, basically, the guy who's writing the story who's not Washington, it's like a frame story, like the end, there's like a little appendix kind of thing. It's like, I heard the story when I was at like, you know, a bar or whatever, or like some meeting, then it's like, and this guy told me the story and like, and so like this idea, like, oh, well, maybe like he saw Ichabod Crane when he was in New York City, you know, and like, he supposedly became like a judge or whatever. But then it was like, well, did he was that him, you know, it's like, so there's like this whole like vagueness, but it comes because like, whatever character Irving is writing as is telling the actual story and then the little after part, it's like, well, this is where I actually heard it from this guy know, so it's like, so it may have died, you know, maybe, maybe Brom Bones killed him. And he's dumped his body in the river. I don't which sounds about could be about right for

Baba: sounds about Brom Bones' style. He is called Brom Bones.

WDG: It's funny, I feel like both Ichabod and Brom Bones in this or even though like Irving will frame it as saying like, the the hero of our story or kind of thing like that. It's like Ichabod's not really like that cool. Like he's just like, he scares himself a lot. He's kind of super awkward. And he's like, and the whole thing with like, maybe this is just more common back in the day anyway. So maybe it's not be a total jerk. But like, part of the thing is falling in love with, you know, Van Tassel is that like, oh, well, he'll also then like inherit the estate. And then he'll kick all these stupid jerks and doesn't like out of there. Like, you know, it's like, like, if they want to come over and visit him when he's the head of the estate. It's like, you know, it's like kind of like, and so there's like that. And then but then like Brom Bones also seems to like probably have like the same idea, you know, I should get this because I'm the coolest guy in town. Like, I'm the strongest and best and you know, and like, and the reason Brom Bones like a practical fight with Ichabod in the first place is that Ichabod doesn't want to fight him. Like he's like, I'm gonna lose if I fight you because you're like twice my size. So I'm not just gonna like get punched and beaten up. So I'm just not gonna do this. And Brom Bones doesn't want to start the fight.

Baba: It's trolling in the early 1800s or whatever. Including a troll bridge.

WDG: we have to come back to ghost rules at some point later in the conversation.

Baba: So I want to add something to this little little mix here and I want to just explain some things so people understand. the short story disagrees with the animated version, the animated version is right. Because the animated version came later and that's right.

Danny C: It's properly vetted is what it is.

Baba: There's another thing I want to mention. Bill, you mentioned about the estate and that was one of my favorite parts in recent years rewatching the cartoon is that while he's like daydreaming about Katrina Van Tassel. When he's trying to get her, you know, trying to marry her or whatever. And it's kind of like it's all focused on the money. kind of like, yeah, Katrina is kind of hot. But that farm. She's got she's pretty rocking, you know. But man, the financial opportunities. I mean, I guess it's like I didn't catch on to as a kid because I know he likes her because she's pretty because, you know, very simple understanding of an eight year old, you know, watching this thing. But yeah,

WDG: I think that but I mean, that time to like the whole, you know, I think marrying her for status is like pretty standard fare for most people in the like, you know, late 18th century. I think that was probably kind of thing.

Baba: It wouldn't have seemed weird to be writing about that at the time because a lot of marriages were economic arrangements. Most marriages in all of history. Economic arrangements, you know, in all of recorded history.

Danny C: Back to what we're talking about, which which episode it was, we're talking about breaking economic barriers, you know, like changing your your class. You know, it's either finding treasure or marrying into it

Baba: or marrying a Van Tassel. Yeah. But he got rejected probably because he didn't have any money. But did Bron Bones have money?

WDG: No, I don't think so either. I think they're both vying for the same thing. I don't I don't see.

Baba: He was he was like, but he was built, you know,

Danny C: maybe like a precursor to UFC. Maybe he did some of that.

WDG: But this is also like the local, I guess

Danny C: Stealing the lunch money. That's how he got it.

WDG: Yeah. I do like it. I do like that. the Legend of Sleepy Hollow, Brombose is kind of the precursor. For the Disney T shaped jerk, you know, like, yeah, he's basically he's got some kind of like the like, I'm just you know, it's like like he kind of does the same kind of stuff. You know, it's like these just he just wants to go, cause problems. And

Baba: is total total tangent. But oh, here we go.

Danny C: Here we go.

Baba: I eat a lot of eggs and Gaston eats a lot of eggs is which makes him the size of a barge. So I like to sometimes say, well, if I eat this portion of eggs, I might this portion of a barge. No, like, you know, if I eat, he eats six dozen eggs or something. So if I eat one dozen eggs, am I one sixth of a barge? Or does it matter where the barge is?

Danny C: Well, it depends too is the growth on a logarithmic scale? Because if so, that's gonna be vastly different.

Baba: That is true. And how big do the eggs have to be? Because I don't know if you guys have noticed the eggs are smaller than they used to.

WDG: Some of those ostrich eggs. So something just as a weird side note about the difference in the cartoon and like short story or even like more modern depictions is a little blurred out because of the way Zoom is adjusting my call. But I have a thing that my wife bought me the other week, a headless horseman like statue and it actually has a glowing jack-o'-lantern that he's holding in the thing, I think the idea is like, well, it's basically the fall Brom Bones probably or whoever was on the thing picked up a pumpkin. So it looked like a head, you know, the jack-o'-lantern part didn't really come into later. And like the whole thing. And it's about and it kind of mixes between because there's like, I guess it's like the legend of like Stingy Jack is like, I think an Irish legend or whatever, where we get the jack-o'-lantern from. And it's basically like this guy who was like, well, he was like, you know, he's stingy, right? And he like tricks the devil into like, picking up his bar tab, like by turning himself into a coin or something. And then like he hides the coin in his pocket with like, so he can't turn back, you know, and he's like, oh, like, I'll let you out if like, and he was those.

Baba: That's a solid move.

WDG: Yeah, and it's like, and then like, he lets them out. And like, then he like tricks them again by like, getting them to go up a tree and putting a cross on the tree or whatever, you know, thing like that. And eventually, like the devil, like, basically, it's like, okay, fine, like, I'm not going to trick your soul or whatever, but that's it. And then like, because he was bad, like, he couldn't get into heaven, and because the devil didn't like him, he couldn't get into hell. So he has these like, curse to wander around with, like, I think it's like a like a gourd that he has, like, a like a colon that's glowing. So people would carve gourds, like, you know, like for that, like, it was like that. And then like, over here, pumpkins became easier to carve, because pumpkins are like, rather than like, you know, carving like, you know, the gourds. And like, so there's like, so the jackalarian kind of falls into that. So this little extra stuff, but the jack o'lantern as the headless horseman comes in later. And then that also makes him much more like, well, that's definitely a supernatural thing. It's not just a prank, like, I mean, he's carrying a jack-o-lantern. Like, it's like, it's, you know, it's, it's the whole like, you know, he's wandering around as a spectral, you know.

Danny C: It's like an interesting piece of trivia. So over the summer, got a like honeydew, I think it was honeydew or a cantaloupe, one of those. Doesn't matter the same thing, different color, you know. But I was, I was cutting it up for the kids.

Baba: Honeydew is unripe cantaloupe.

Danny C: It is. I was carving it up for the kid or cutting it up for the kids. And I said to Lauren, I was like, this actually kind of reminds me of like pumpkin innards. And I did a quick search, not using ChatGPT, a legit search. And seemingly whatever was cutting, I think it was a honeydew, is actually technically a gourd. It's in the same family. So I was like, well, that kind of makes sense then.

Baba: an old tradition too of carving turnips, turnips. So we're in this this spooky season, you know, carving turnips has an established historic. I believe that is also an Irish thing. Carving turnips around this time into little faces and things.

Danny C: So I'm assuming this is not the case whenever I hear turnip, I think of a flower. I'm assuming it's not a flower, right?

Baba: It's the root. It's a root crop. Most people in the States have never seen it. It's like a parsnip. It's like what the heck is that white carrot? No, but a turnip is a root crop. It looks kind of almost spherical and they're white and purple and they're prized for their roots. I think you can eat turnip greens. If I'm wrong, put it in the comments. If I'm right, put it in the comments.

Danny C: I wonder if I think tulip and it's so close to turnip. I wonder if that's why my brain thinks flower.

Baba: You do think tulip. I don't know that turnips don't produce flowers because most plants actually. Am I wrong? I think it mostly do. Yeah, just make the only way they reproduce unless it's a prove me wrong. And that doesn't that means it's not a plant.

WDG: So, yeah, so let's just jump back. So headless horsemen like there's like so the obviously like he's supposedly in like Washington Irving's story, dead Hessian soldier. Apparently like in the cemetery of the church, the old Dutch like graveyard, there actually is supposedly a tomb to a Hessian soldier that apparently did die out there and was buried. I don't think that was that uncommon in that like area though because I Hessians So those were basically like kind of like German mercenaries that came over during the war to fight, you know, like never usually hired by the British like during the Revolutionary War. And so like, so obviously like that had stuff was happening in that part of New York, you know, it's like, but it's like, Washington Irving had like, you know, he was born pretty much right at the end of the Revolutionary War. So he like, I think like whatever 1783 or something like that. It's like, and so, but when he was like a teenager, the yellow fever outbreak in New York City, he went up to live in that area. And so that's when he like heard all these ghost stories and things like that. And then there's like, but then there's also, he went and traveled abroad, like to Europe, like later on, like his family like sent him there to like, you know, become like a proper gentleman kind of thing. And learn stuff in Europe, you know, like become, become classically trained. I think he's like hanging out with like Mary Shelley, like, yeah, or got introduced to him because it's like Sir Walter, was it Sir Walter Riley, like introduce them and like, you know, so there's all those Gothic horror writers and stuff like that. And so that makes him like somewhat adjacent to Lord Byron who he kind of liked and you know, all this different stuff. But in, you know, like, there's a bunch of different headless horsemen like kind of legends in like Ireland and Scotland, Wales, and like you might have even heard some of these as a kid because his family was from Cornwall, which is close enough to Wales. And it's like often these like headless writers who are like, they're usually like omens of death or I'm not gonna pronounce this right. And it's like the, that's like the Irish one. It's like basically like a Celtic deity supposedly and rides a horse, its head is like out in front of it and has like a whip made of human spine or something. And if it stops riding, like, you know, then somebody dies or if it calls out someone's name, they instantly die. And then it gets morphed into like, it's a carriage rider and like a driver and in the back is like some other ghosts or something like that. So like, it kind of kind of evolves. And then there's like a very similar one that's like, in Scotland, and then there's the one in Wales is actually the rider, but it's related to like, a child who was like a legitimate child who was buried somewhere and the person riding the horses is like the kind of spirit of that or whatever. It's like, so it's like, it's strange. But yeah, so like, so there is this kind of precedent for like mixing up like, well, there was a story there about this dead Hessian soldier who maybe haunts the cemetery. And then there's these other stories of like, these actual ghostly riders that come and there's other like things like, like there's like the wild hunt, which is more like, like things like Scandinavian and you know, it's got that type of stuff, you know, different things. And there's like, headless rider, obviously, death riding a horse, you know, like there's these kind of precedents for it. But like, so it's like mixing up like, but the haunted Hessian soldier, I think was like probably a local folk in the because like you said Dan earlier, like this area was filled with kind of spooky stories. And that kind of was the thing. This area did seem like it has a lot of hauntings and other stuff going on. And, you know, so you mix up with like, post war stuff and like all these, you know, things that happened and oh, of course, there's ghosts haunting everywhere and doing stuff, you know. So so it's like, so that seems to be like, what I understand, it's like the basis for blending the two kind of things. But yeah, I

Baba: thought it was cool actually learn the detail that in the short story, it was actually a Hessian soldier. Because like, of course, many people have seen the Tim Burton film, and Tim Burton can sometimes have some artistic reasons. So whole, I liked what he did with it in some ways. But that it was a Hessian soldier in that I thought that was like, ah, that's an interesting thing, not realizing at the time that it was in the original because it's like, oh, he's kind of tying these things together. What I thought was cool in that. It's a spoiler. Can I say a spoiler on here? Yeah, for like a 25 year old movie or something. Yeah, exactly.

Danny C: Your own damn fault. Well, for anyone that doesn't want to hear the spoiler, just put this on pause. Go find the movie, take the two hours and then come back.

WDG: It's probably free with ads somewhere.

Baba: So in the movie, here it comes. He's being summoned with witchcraft by a person that has his head. And so maybe not totally taken by taken off by a cannonball in the movie called Sleepy Hollow. And but that idea, I thought was actually like, that's an interesting take on an old story. I think somebody should do Phantom of the Opera where Christine is a witch that is summoning the Phantom, who's an actual ghost and taking out her enemies and competition at the Opera House. I think someone with more talent than me should do that.

Danny C: Guess we have to wait for that to go into public domain. That's going to be a little while.

Baba: It's going to be a long while.

WDG: Yeah, right. No, I think Phantom probably is in public domain.

Danny C: No. The novel? No, because it's... Oh, I was just thinking... So here's my limited knowledge. I was thinking the musical. I assume that was original, but that's based off of a book?

WDG: Yeah, yeah, it's based off a book. And also there was like, I mean, it has to be in public domain probably now because it's like the original movie was like in like what, the 20s, I think, like a silent Phantom of the Opera. Is Chaney? Maybe? I'm like getting my old movie history.

Danny C: I'm blown away. I had no idea it was that old. Okay.

Baba: Yeah, yeah. 1909 was originally published as a serial in... Sorry, French listeners. Le Guillol. That's wrong. That's definitely wrong. It shouldn't end like that, but it's... It would be... Gollois. Maybe if you were to say it without any kind of attempt. I didn't do well in French.

WDG: We need to... Okay, can we get one of those like Duolingo sponsors?

Baba: Yeah. If you suck at pronouncing on the language.

WDG: Yeah, can we get a sponsorship if you're listening?

Danny C: So if the book was first published in 1909, current copyright law is like 70 years after the person dies. So depending when the author died, it may or may not be in public domain.

Baba: Yeah, and it was published in pamphlet things or a serial as a serial. So probably some kind of a monthly thing from 1909 to beginning in 1910.

WDG: Yeah. So it's... Yeah. And I figure like... I think like that also applies to...

Danny C: I don't think it works out. Someone find out for sure in the comments. Let's know. Can we make this? Can we pull our resources and make a new Phantom of the Opera movie where... What's it? Christine? Is that her name? Christine is a witch

Baba: using the old mask to summon up an actual ghost to take out her enemies.

WDG: Christine is the fan.

Danny C: I mean, she... Yeah. That's a Scooby-Doo version probably.

Baba: They just don't pull the mask off though, because it's, you know, on an altar with a bunch of...

WDG: We'll have to get back to like haunted plays or something at some point, because I think... Because actually like Phantom is sort of like... Just like the Legend of Scooby-Doo is based on things that actually were something that did happen. But yes, like Chris said, the Hessian soldier. The Hessian soldier is actually there. There's a marker in the cemetery that says like, you know, the unknown Hessian soldier. And it's like when he was born was unknown and when he died was, you know, during the war. So like, you know... So that is like not just like a, you know, thing that was just made up for the book that's clearly there. And there's apparently stories of that being haunted, you know. It's like...

Baba: I just had an idea, but I'll save it for the monster ratings.

Danny C: I'll add to that. So, Baba, we actually watch the animated version every Halloween. It's like part of our yearly rotation. We do that. Like the Garfield Halloween special from the 80s. There's like a handful of shows we do. And I would say check it again. I am almost positive they mentioned that it was a Hessian soldier in the animated version. I'm almost positive, but I could be wrong. So check it out.

Baba: It's the perfect time of year for me to revisit.

WDG: And it has the great song. Even though I'm not a Bing Crosby fan, I do appreciate the song.

Baba: Come on, you've got a Bing Crosby tattoo.

WDG: Yes, but it's not where people can see it or be. That's right.

Baba: Because they don't make you sing the song. But actually the reason you have it, truth be told, is because of the music and that.

WDG: Yeah, it's also a Bing Crosby decapitated head.

Baba: It's got a great line in it that I thought of. And you were given the thing about Bing Crosby. When you're saying about him riding along and how he's trying to talk to him. And there's a great line in the song. You can't reason with a headless man.

WDG: Yes. Oh, this is so good. It's good.

Baba: I love it. Great, clever writers.

Danny C: According to the summary I read, it doesn't seem to be a case that Ichabod's trying to quickly get away from the horseman. He's just kind of riding along and the headless horseman is keeping pace. So I don't know if it's different actually in the short story. It's definitely different in the animated version where he's frantically trying to get away.

WDG: It's like a mix of that. Because he sees the person coming up near him. And he stops. And then he's already freaking out. So he tries to whistle a tune, but he can't. His mouth is dry. And the guy figures, "Oh, look." And I think he calls out, tries to call out to him. And he's like, "Hey!" And it doesn't answer. And he sees what's cloaked and it's dark and it's scary. And then he tries to go and then he finds the horse passing him. He slows down because he's riding an old mare that's all beaten up and stuff. And then when he tries to speed up, the mare darts the wrong way and runs and hits the fence. And then he gets the mare back on the road and he tries to go for the bridge. And the saddle starts coming loose and comes out from underneath of him. And the horseman just keeps following him. And as he's picking up the pace, the horseman's picking up. So it's just there until he finally does get across the bridge and that's when he gets hit in the face with the pumpkin or the head or whatever. It's supposed to be knocks him out and he loses consciousness. So it's like, but yeah, the saddle gets lost and all these things. So there's like, a lot of that stuff does happen in the, it's more, but it's a lot more actiony. But yeah, it's that kind of thing.

Baba: So like, headless things, they're scary for some reason, mostly because we don't often encounter normal headless things. But it turns out there's like a weird history of headlessness and heads that is just like, right for the picket. And it's, you got these things called blemis, which are creatures that are said to exist. Their faces are actually in their chest claim to exist in Europe. And then later they claim they exist in India. And then when we're in the Americas, they, oh, no, no, it starts. They first they exist in Africa and then I think in Europe and then in India and then in the Americas. And it's these things like that people keep claiming they encounter these things, blemis, You've got a bunch of headless saints that are called, Kephela, Kephelophores, I believe. So, Kephelos is the Greek word for head. And so you've got these. So the things I was talking about, the blemis, the Greek word for them is a Kephelos, the headless ones. So later on, of course, you've got the character, Kephelos is the headless spirit that you summon up in the headless rite. The scariest demon that all other demons are scared of and you summon it up for exorcism. You scare the crap out of them with this headless thing. But why is that so scary? Like dragons? Okay, if you think about teeth, teeth are scary because you encounter things with teeth that could kill you. Or claws, or sharp things, like these things that show up in monster design, if you will, that are recurring things that look like things we might encounter in the so-called normal world that could kill you, hurt you, or whatever. But when it comes to the things in general, they seem to carry this special weird scariness associated also with dead. So anyway, I wanted to throw that out there. I know there are other stories of headless writers and things, but this idea of headless saints, which I can come back to because I just flapped on for a minute.

Danny C: It's interesting. I wonder if that is in line with the Uncanny Valley, where it's like you have a human, for instance. It's almost human. It's so close, but it's missing a head. And it's just like on that level, it's like that just creeps people out in the same way as Uncanny Valley, maybe.

Baba: because actually, Uncanny Valley, one of the things that's immediately referenced when people talk about it is it's kind of like when people have a reaction to a corpse because this kind of weird kind of thing. And so when you're looking at, I don't know, like a robot that's made to look like a human, but it doesn't quite seem to be alive, it's got that that Uncanny Valley. It's almost like this almost human, but not. And that has that weird kind of reaction. Now, that's been a way that people explain the Uncanny Valley. Maybe that's why that exists, you know. But yeah, yeah, really interesting, though.

WDG: just something to the degree of like, I mean, in like probably summing up pretty, like you said earlier about like, you know, you can't reason with a headless man. Like, there's like, there's something just non, like, you know, like, there's no, like, it makes it so much more other, like, you know, versus like, oh, here's a ghost. And even if the ghost is in the same pattern, it's the ghost of, you know, your great, great grandfather, and he's haunting whatever the attic of your old house, you know, or something. It's like, well, like, it's like, that's a person. But this, like, but a lot of, especially even these like headless writer things aside from the ones that are like, literally almost like deity just something like, even more otherworldly about them. Like, they're just like, there's, they're just like a force, you know, and they're like, just there to do whatever they're doing, you know, whether it's out looking for a head out to bring death upon you, you know, and you can't do anything to stop them. Like, you can't talk to them. They can't be a reason. They're just, you know, they're just, and when they appear, they just, and there's also this thing with like, writers and like, the thing between the, like the writer specifically versus like the other things is like, they like tend to bridge between like, the land of the dead and the land of the living. And it's like, the horse, the, the, the, the, so it's almost like, they're coming out of this ghostly realm. And they're, they're not like, oh, I'm a ghost. I'm stuck here. Like, you've like, like, like, in even in the case of the, the hellish horseman, like you can ride from the cemetery, he rides down the road, he comes around, and he's like, and during that hour, if you catches you on the road, like, well, that might just be really bad, you know, it's like, you gotta like run, you know, and get away and hope for the hope to outrun them before he has to like run back, water is off the, like, various cultures is kind of like a way of almost like exercise of spirit, you know, it'll be so he cleans them if he was running, whether it's like, kind of Slavic stuff with like, you know, like vampires and things can't cross running water and things like that. Or like, water is also the way the dead move on to the afterlife. whether it's you paying the ferryman the river six across the water, because like, as a spirit, you can't cross the water yourself. the riders because they're like, moving on something, they're like coming out of the ghostly land into the land of the living for this period of time and riding around and causing mischief and mayhem.

Danny C: Interesting to going back to Burton, Sleepy Hollow. did a very good job of describing what you just said, where if I remember correctly, the headless horseman comes out, he comes from hell. Yeah, and is like, you know, galloping about. Yeah, this thing and that the end like goes back down underground into into hell. Yeah, and then taking the witch with him. of the ferryman, that is another character, which I just think is awesome. to of the Titans almost, you know, we talked about Medusa before. ferryman and that just like the way it kind of creeps across the river and the cloak and it puts out its claw hand or its bony hand. Yeah, so so cool. One of those characters that just really like, ah, right on.

Baba: Let's talk about Saint.

WDG: Go ahead. Yeah, please.

Baba: Saint Dennis. Saint Dennis is a head, a head. He's a saint. He's the head of all the same. He's a martyr that had his head cut off. And then the story is that he picked up his head, walked several miles while preaching a sermon on repentance. So tales of talking heads go back at least not the band and not news, not newscasters, but tales of tales of talking heads go back pre-Aristotle because Aristotle actually made it a point to do his best to refute it, which if you ask me reeks of a cover up, but whatever. He's keeping all of the establishment. You heard him for Alexander the Great. Yeah. But yeah, so a little suburb of Paris, Saint Dennis is from it was a bishop of Paris and a little a little town sprung up. That is his namesake. It's like a little suburb of Paris. Saint Denis, which is probably close to how it's pronounced actually. I probably didn't butcher that one as bad as Bad Lee. But he's one of like five or six like well-known saints, headless saints. Many of them pick up their heads and continue talking. One is in the middle of praying a psalm. He gets his head cut off and then finishes the psalm. So that's a very strange kind of... You never know all the weird saint stories that are tucked into the world. St. Paul apparently, after his head is cut off, that was one of the talking heads.

Danny C: I have to interrupt for one second. I'm losing it over here. There is a like Monty Python flying circus skit in here somewhere with like... I'm picturing this like all of a sudden like, someone's like they're talking, you know, all of a sudden, off with the head, like picks it up, continues talking.

WDG: I think it would have to be some kind of businessman or something. Now clearly

Danny C: the charts here say that.

Baba: I have to finish delivering the sales, president.

Danny C: But Johnson closed the deal. He lost his head in the middle of it, but yeah, he closed the deal.

WDG: One thing about Johnson, you can never keep him from getting ahead, like, or something. Head and

Baba: shoulders above the rest.

WDG: Yeah. Or at least shoulders.

Baba: I'll leave the headless saints there. There are a few more, but we've all raised.

WDG: Let's just jump back to you because I think we do have to... We'll probably will have to add this seriously as a segment of ghost rules, you know, like, just like these little interstitial like, ghost rules. It's like, because we have come across this a little bit before. I mean, like, obviously, like Bloody Mary has some level of rules. Headless swordsman has least three... I guess, let's see. He has... Can't cross the water over the bridge. Like, the bridge is being like a symbol to the other side and crossing the water symbol to the other side. He is attached to where his body is, like in the cemetery. So it kind of things. He can only be out during like a certain hour, you know, like the witching hours, you know. But then there might be the other thing of like, if he did find his head, would that put him to rest? Like, you know, like the idea is like, if he's out searching, because that's often a thing too. Like, if you get reburied or you reconnect, you know, thing or like, you know, you find the consecrated... I think we were talking about in the... maybe it was in the graveyard episode, where the person, like the haunted house, they found a body. And once they buried the body and unconsecrated ground and it was put to rest, all the hauntings went away. So like, there might be this idea, like, if you did find the head of the soldier and put it back in his cemetery, you know, a grave and buried him properly, like, they would get rid of him. So like, so there's, yeah, about four ghosts. He seems to follow.

Baba: And one that's at least going to be a little hard to you know, is the, you know, I don't know what the result of a cannonball to the head is, but we'll just leave it at that. We'll leave it at that.

WDG: Yeah, it might be permanently ghost. Yeah, there might not be a hope for the haunting to end.

Baba: So, yeah, there we didn't talk about other headless riders. Yeah. Were you telling the Japanese version?

WDG: Well, it's not the Japanese version, but yeah. So, so like, obviously, like post World War Two, in Japan, there arises a lot of these, like, you know, motorcycle gang type things. They're also very inspired by, like, Western movies and stuff like that. And I can't remember what the specific name is, but it's like basically like, and it reaches its height in like 70s, 80s, you know, in that kind of time period. Well, there starts to be like tales of headless motorcycle riders. One may be inspired by, like, a film that was from Australia that kind of became popular, but like this idea of one rider, he's riding down the road. Someone puts out a piano wire and it cuts his head off. So now he's driving around, you know, without a head, like haunting this road. Then there seems to be another of a gang of ghostly riders that come down from the mountain in this one prefecture, and they're all on motorcycles and none of them have heads. Or sometimes their heads are floating around them as like ghostly forms and like screaming at people and things. Yeah. So that's kind of like a modern updated thing. Like, you know, it's like, like the, obviously the rider who lost his head, like his ideas, like, he'll chase you down because he's looking for his head, you know, or something like that. It's probably not as I don't know that that I don't know if they'll want like the, you know, sleepy hollow thing crosses over that, or this is just their own weird take on it. Like, there might be some kind of, Chris, you might be able to speak because, you know, a little bit more about this, but like the Yokei influence on the ones that's the group of the gang of them. And before he was, I saw something too that was about like, riders in, some riders in Japan will paint their helmets in like a matte black, like they'll wear black face shields and paint them matte black. So at night when they're riding, they do seem like they don't have a head, you know, and people often see it saying like, they see headless riders around. So it's like,

Baba: so there's that association with the trolling again. Yeah, like, because it's

WDG: like, because it's like, you're wearing, because a lot of these motorcycles are often like painted up really in like crazy colors and stuff like that. You know, they're, they're often like customized bikes that are crossed between like a chopper and a cafe racer. And it's like, which is like the European style, but you know, and then obviously later on the sports bikes, but they're like usually modified and bright colors. And I imagine like, if for the effect, if you're wearing like a bright colored motorcycle suit and had a matte black helmet, you probably would look at no, you know, like someone passing you on like a road out the middle of, you know, like up a mountain or something somewhere you probably would.

Baba: Yeah, it's like the lighting is headlights and not, it's not a very well lit kind of thing, not like driving through Tokyo. Very well.

WDG: Yeah. These are where people will race motorcycles and stuff up in these like, more like mountain pass regions and stuff like that, you know, so yeah, it's pretty, pretty cool. Like so, I thought that was awesome. I heard that.

Baba: Yeah. Yeah, it's a lot of cool, weird little headless stuff. We should talk about at some point, spirit parades and things that that would probably incorporate the, we could do like the, I mean, it touches on the wild hunt. It's, it's not exactly a spirit parade. But if you think about the, the night, the night parade of 100 demons. That's the, that's the yokai parade of yokai spirit in Japan, you know, these very cool. Oh, yeah. When we talk about it. I actually have my, my night parade cards that they, you can actually set it up as a big picture.

WDG: I dropped something I pulled that down.

Danny C: Going back to the rules, you know, it kind of reminds me when we're talking about zombies, you know, we talked about, you know, specifically I mentioned this, what was like different undead. Nice. Different undead had, there was none that were too powerful, you know, and I mentioned how vampires, you know, they, you know, they could all come out at night and you know, garlic and holy water crosses and you know this with zombies that with skeletons. And it's similar, you know, you seem to get these rules other places like you were saying where it's like, you know, the how this horseman is tied to the land, which kind of also goes to talk about the burial grounds we were saying, it was seem to be like people that weren't, I didn't have the proper ceremonial burial will say, could be the case that they're tied in afterlife to that that area until its result. Yeah. And then I talked about black eyed kids in one of the episodes where it was you know that you have to invite them in they want to come in and if you don't invite them you're you're in the clear. It's very interesting that we seem to have these rules about them, you know, whether they're real or not. It's very, very interesting. And I wonder if it's cause we're bound to rules like as humans or, you know, is if you believe that these other things exist like there are some other rules bound in that area as well in that dimension. Very interesting. Interesting.

Baba: Yeah, yeah.

WDG: quick note of, Washington Irving, like, actually eventually settles in in that area like he lives in that area like he builds a big estate. And I think the estate got bought from the van hassle people like that was an actual family like it was like, like it was a small house that needed was in disrepair and he bought the land and then he built this big estate like after he came back from, you know, being becoming more very famous, you know, stuff like that. And like, and he lived there for a while and then like, he had to travel became like an ambassador, I think. And then so it's like, so it's his like brother or something live there. And then so it's like, but, but yeah, so it's a museum. So you can go like visit, you know, visit. It's like, you know, stuff like that. It's a, you know, where he and it's a yeah, so so he must have, he must have been not that scared of the area that he turned it. And I think he called it like sunny side, I think is what the play, you know, it was like, or like, or sunny veil, like one of those things. It's like, you know, so it's kind of funny, like the contrast of like, when I was a kid here, everything was haunted and creepy and like, but as an adult, this is like my nice, you know, place. It's not like, you know, you know, and I guess like, so it's so it's kind of kind of cool. So just as a, you know, that's my appendix to the story.

Baba: It's kind of funny that sometimes you wind up with that people that write these scary stories, but actually don't believe anything like that. HP Lovecraft, the guy that wrote a lot all the me everyone knows Cthulhu, I think now but like HP Lovecraft. He was like, seemingly like a, like a materialist in terms of like, explanations of the he didn't believe in any of those weird stuff, but he had these freaky dreams that were the inspiration for his stuff, supposedly, you know. Alright, should we should we rate our monsters, should we should we do our thing. I guess, I'll let me start with my idea. What if you did summon the headless horseman, or

WDG: the headless horseman is it like it is there like you know that's right, you know, he's, he's real and

Baba: doesn't have to be real in order to summon it. Okay.

WDG: That's an ontological question that's the counter the encounter is real is trying to say yeah

Baba: yeah I think, I think if the headless horseman is real and talk about how do you capitalize on this. Get see what I did there. Alright. So, how do you capitalize on it is, you. You sell curses, you, you, you have the way of summoning up the headless horseman and using him against enemies. And I think it would be an interesting experiment. If any of you in this spooky time of year, do that experiment. Let us know before you do the experiment. And hopefully afterward, you know, hopefully, always, always. I'm done. I'm gonna read it. Not that you don't have less things. I actually don't fit. Okay if I encountered one I probably would think it was pretty scary, but like thinking about it right now compared to other things like is it as scary as. I'm going to give it, I'll give it three. I'm going to give it three, and three monsters and a monster head, just in case there are any restless spirits out there that are monster shaped.

WDG: So is that three and a half, or four.

Baba: Depends on the size of the head. I'll say three and a third.

Danny C: My rating on this. It's based entirely on short story essentially, at least you know the one sleepy hollow that we're talking about. And for that reason, and with the addition of the animated version. I just cannot take the idea of the headless horseman very seriously. As much as I love it as much as I love the ideas, you know, as cool as I find it. Every time I think about you know a real headless horseman, you know, I might think about the mayor that is in the forest and Ichabod's on top of it and it's there like laughing, you know when they discover the, the, whatever the

Baba: Cat tales I think

Danny C: the cat tells me hitting the log and it sounds like a galloping like that kind of. So, for me, I'm going to give I'm gonna give the headless horseman solid to. But I will I will take what you said about how do you capitalize on this. And I will say I'm going to go to very very weird and completely different direction. I'm going to use this as a way for if you have employees that are not performing well, you know, after they go on their, their personal improvement plan. If that doesn't pan out it's like well we're going to get the headless horseman after the event, and that that will scare them into writing a sheet.

WDG: This is Jeff Bezos is playing for how to use the headless. Actually, it is. I'm going to go with a in a different direction, because like what you're saying, Dan it's like completely based on a short story but it's like it's it isn't because one, you got the there is a hetian soldier buried in the churchyard in that area supposedly that's haunting that area.

Danny C: I can't get past the animated

WDG: part I can't get past. Well yeah that's that's fine. But I'm just saying but I'm thinking like, and then there's obviously like headless writers equals death, you know, is pretty like the idea is like if you were to see this, there's a good chance you are going to die or someone you know is going to die because that's like seems to be what the mythology of that is. And that's like pretty like just an omen like if you just saw a shadowy writer just appear in the road, and all of a sudden like that it pretty much means you're dead, you know, like that like it's there's not a lot to it doesn't seem like you know unless you can figure out the way to break the rules, you know, and do that whole thing. And so I think about like, maybe this one of your day, like, okay, so near your house, you're coming down the one weird back road you have to cross the stupid covered bridge right you actually you have actual cover bridge, but it's old timey that goes over essentially like, you know, like a creek part of the like a small part of the river, kind of a thing. And it's a like, and like that road that leads there. It's so effing windy and stupid and narrow and like, like, do your jump out and things it's like just a pain in the butt, just driving a car down there, you know, it's like, at night, it's really, really kind of annoying and kind of scary like just in general. If I were now walking down that road, or, and if I already heard there was supposed to be some kind of demonic writer that wants that, and I had a couple miles to get between down that road and across the bridge before I could get back to my house. And all of a sudden, some, you know, like ghostly upper, it should appear and started chasing me. I think I'd be pretty scared. I think that would, I think like, like, like, I think like, regardless of like, what have I decided that this was real or not, that would be pretty scary. And it's like, and if you were of the mind that you already kind of like have like, you know, and I don't, you know, generally believe in that kind of thing. But if I was trying to put it into like a real perspective, that kind of scenario was just eerie anyway. And it would be even more eerie if I was just clicking along on horseback down the road over towards the bridge, like that would be very scary. And then if something appeared and started chasing me, it would be incredibly scary. Because one, even if it wasn't a headless horseman, it's probably someone that wants to mess with pretty bad. I don't know if you've ever had a time where you've been chased by people down dark streets or anything at night in cities or anything. That's scary. Just in general. That's when you know that there are people who want to do you harm, let alone an evil spirit on a horseback carrying possibly his head or possibly a jack-o'-lantern that wants to do you harm. And isn't also bound by the rule.

Danny C: But I think if you if you widen the net that much, I mean, that could be anything. It'd be like you're on the road walking home and there's a wolf in the street, you know, that's like staring you down. I mean, that's that's equally as terrifying, you know, or if you're walking down the road and you know, there's a guy with a, you know, he's coming at you with a knife or something like that.

WDG: So a guy with a horseback with a sword.

Danny C: But we're talking about...

Baba: It would be very scary.

Danny C: In this instance, it's a fictional character, though. So for me, it's I got to keep that tight. I got to keep it. I'm trying to put it.

WDG: I'm trying to put it in the ghost realm, you know, like, like, like, like, we're talking. It's Halloween. We're talking about ghosts. This is based on an actual haunting that supposedly has rules, you know, like, at least for, you know, like, like all hauntings, like unconfirmed in an area that seems to be prone towards haunting type mythology. But the like, but yeah, but I'm just like trying to think of like, if that's the case, like, whatever it was, I'd be scared, especially if it's like a person on horseback in like with a wielding like a sword or something. It's got a saber or whatever. It's kind of scared. And I forgot this. I think just as from a scary perspective, Halloween, I would definitely give and like, and because it's like, it mixes real folktale, real legends, like weird, you know, fae type things and actual like mythology and stuff with like, you know, then putting them all together into this thing. It's like, if there was a ghost like this that I encountered on the road, I would. Yeah, I'd probably be scared. I would definitely forget. So maybe four. I'm going to give it four monsters. You know, it's like, I just say, yeah.

Baba: I want someone to make the haunting real. I think to try to summon up the Hessian soldier and see if he'll do it. And if not, maybe you can summon up something else and just see if it'll pretend to be the headless horseman did,

Danny C: that. We need like a mass reenactment of the headless horseman. We need someone that needs to do this on the annual, you know, they're dressed up. And maybe through that and through all of the emotions that are tied into it, you know, and people wanting a real headless horseman because you got to you got to want it. You got to want it. Yeah, I think maybe we could make this happen. I think we could create, you know, we're talking about topas. Topas is back, you know, maybe we can do that and actually create the headless horseman. I'd be game for that. If you guys are game for that, put it in the comments.

WDG: We want to know. I'm pretty sure there are there are like, you know, fall events that happen in sleepy house.

Danny C: But are they trying to make it? Are they trying to make it real?