EP 2: Is Bloody Mary Real?

Watch/Listen to this Episode Is Bloody Mary Real? License Info Is Bloody Mary Real? Transcription Is Bloody Mary Real?

In this chilling and insightful episode of the Wondering Monsters Podcast, the hosts take listeners beyond the typical ghost story and into the depths of one of Western culture’s most enduring urban legends—Bloody Mary. What begins with a personal childhood memory becomes a layered exploration of fear, ritual, folklore, and the psychology behind why mirrors and legends like Bloody Mary continue to haunt us.

Spanning first-hand experience, historical analysis, and occult tradition, the episode unpacks not just what the Bloody Mary ritual is, but why it has become such a powerful and persistent part of our cultural imagination.

A Personal Encounter with the Bloody Mary Ritual

The episode opens with several real-life experiences including a middle school sleepover, darkness, and an apparition in a mirror. One of the participants had a profound and terrifying reaction—visibly disturbed, panicked, and insisting on going home. The tension and confusion lingered well beyond that night. For years, co-host, Danny C, returns to the moment, wondering: what did he actually experience?

Another story surrounds co-host, Baba, getting locked in a linen closet with a mirror and the summoning of … the devil?

These personal memories serves as a launching point to explore the deeper roots and enduring legacy of the Bloody Mary myth.

What Is the Bloody Mary Ritual?

The Bloody Mary ritual has dozens of cultural variants, but the core structure is simple:

• A dark room (usually a bathroom)
• A mirror
• The repeated chanting of “Bloody Mary” (usually three times)
• The anticipation of an apparition or supernatural event

Over the years, details have shifted—sometimes she appears and screams, sometimes she reaches through the mirror, sometimes blood appears. The variability of the outcomes is part of what keeps the legend alive. As the host of the Wondering Monsters Podcast notes, these differences are part of oral tradition and social storytelling.

More than just a ghost story, the ritual is a social experiment in fear—a mix of anticipation, peer pressure, and vulnerability in a setting designed to distort perception.

The Historical Roots of Bloody Mary

The episode also explores the potential historical origins behind the Bloody Mary figure. While there is no single answer, several theories emerge:

• Mary I of England, the Catholic monarch known for executing Protestants, earned the nickname “Bloody Mary.”
• Victorian mirror lore, in which mirrors were covered during wakes to prevent spirits from becoming trapped.
• Global folklore archetypes involving female ghosts, spirits, or demons tied to reflections and revenge.

Rather than being a single story, Bloody Mary is a folkloric fusion—a reflection of fears tied to feminine rage, death, and the supernatural.

Mirror Lore, Scrying, and the Occult

One of the most fascinating parts of the episode is the exploration of mirror-based divination, or scrying. Long before Bloody Mary, people used mirrors and reflective surfaces to seek messages from the spirit world.

The Wondering Monsters Podcast mentions:

• Catoptromancy – ancient Greek mirror divination
• John Dee’s obsidian mirror – used in Elizabethan occult rituals
• Crystal balls and water scrying – used across cultures

Bloody Mary is presented as a modern form of folk scrying—an improvised ritual built on ancient practices, done not by mystics but by children with a flashlight and a dare.

Why Are We So Afraid of Mirrors?

The podcast also dives into the psychology of mirrors and why they can be inherently disturbing—especially in dim light. The concept of the strange-face illusion is introduced: a phenomenon in which people experience distorted or ghostly faces while staring at themselves in the mirror for extended periods under low light.

Combined with the fear of isolation, group suggestion, and a charged atmosphere, this creates a perfect storm for hallucination. The mind will fill in what the eye cannot clearly see — and that makes the Bloody Mary ritual as psychologically potent as it is legendary.

Fear as Ritual and Social Bonding

The Wondering Monsters Podcast makes the case that the Bloody Mary ritual functions like a rite of passage—particularly among kids. It’s a test of courage, a bonding moment, and a kind of playful confrontation with mortality and the unknown.

Fear in this context becomes performative: someone laughs, someone screams, someone refuses to play. The host trio reflect on how these moments shape our memories and reinforce the emotional charge of the legend. Even if no ghost appears, the fear itself becomes real.

Final Reflections: A Living Myth in the Mirror

By the end of the episode, the hosts reframe Bloody Mary not as a childish prank or horror cliché, but as a living modern myth. Her story changes with each telling but remains grounded in universal fears—of death, reflection, the feminine unknown, and what lies just beyond what we can see.

More than a legend, Bloody Mary is a mirror of cultural anxiety, carried across generations through whispers, dares, and flickering bathroom lights.

The Wondering Monsters Podcast leaves listeners with one final reminder: Legends like Bloody Mary persist because they speak to something we all feel—but can’t always explain.

Mentioned in This Episode

• Is Bloody Mary Real?
• What are Liminal Spaces and Why Do They Feel So Weird?

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Licensing Information

• Title: Entry of the Gladiators
• Composer: Julius Fučík
• Library of Congress (Public Domain)
• Podcast theme song version edited/arranged/mixed by Dan Swift

Unless indicated, images appear in their original form.

Anthonis Mor - Queen Mary Tudor of England - WGA16178

• Queen Mary (Image)
• Queen Mary (License)

Elizabeth Báthory

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• Elizabeth Báthory (License)

Bloody Mary Bloody Mary Bloody Mary (Inktober201)

• Artist: magnifulouschicken
• Bloody Mary (Image)
• Bloody Mary (License)

Devil Goat

• Diablorex at en.wikipedia / Rex Diablo
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Johannes Trithemius 1

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Platonic and Aristotelian Forms

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Raymond Moody 2

• Author: Ehabich
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The following images were generated using AI from MyNinja.ai, NightCafe, or ChatGPT
Man Scrying (with and without skull), Woman Scrying, Cloud Bear, Boogeyman at the closet, crazy mirror, dream spirits, crossroads and the devil, living room and covered mirror, house wake

Transcription

*Transcription was automatically generated and may contain errors. 

(Upbeat Music)

Danny C: This is a crazy story. So I remember when I was a kid, we were having a sleepover at the house and I was like middle school age or whatever it was. And I remember my one friend was over and I remember at one point he like completely freaked out. And I was like, what is going on? I didn't say anything to him, just kind of like, you know, probably like soft jabs, you know, oh, you know, scared of the dark or something stupid like that. You end up calling his parents and wanting to get picked up at like 11 o'clock at night or midnight or something ridiculous like that. And, you know, I just was like, well, whatever dude, like that's, you know, people are people, you know, preteens are funny, whatever. But I remember talking to him like after the fact and he talked about like this crazy experience he had with the mirror in our bathroom. And I'm like, what are you talking about? He's like, no, no, I don't want to talk about it. It was just, it was weird. I don't want to talk about it. And we never spoke of it again. And it kind of reminded me of when we were talking before about like the whole like sleepover, hygiene, you know, that kind of a thing, which ultimately led me to the concept of Bloody Mary. So I don't know if he had an experience with Bloody Mary or not, but it was just a very, very weird scenario. So Bloody Mary, I don't really know the full history of it. History is definitely my, in my world of education, history is my weakest link. But Bloody Mary, it comes back to, I believe it was Queen Mary, the first of England. Some ties are to her. Another tie is to the blood countess, which I believe was Elizabeth, like, I don't even know if I'm saying her name right. And then there's another one has to do with, I don't even know if it's the same person or not, but like, there's this woman that murdered her children, like a local legend kind of thing. So it's kind of like all over the map, but the concept is very interesting where it's like, this thing lives in the mirror and you may be able to summon it. And the results range from like seeing something freaky to like it coming out of the mirror and killing you. So Bloody Mary, it's a weird thing. I don't even know, either of you have any experience. Have you had any experience with Bloody Mary?

Baba: Yeah, yeah. Actually, so my first experience with Bloody Mary, I was like a kid and well, often this is how it goes.

Danny C: Last week.

Baba: Last week I was talking to a friend, he said, Bloody Mary. Okay, so we got this, we had this linen closet in the hallway in the old house and had a mirror on the inside. Now I'm four. And as you probably know from hearing different stories of Bloody Mary, it's like, well, what has to be involved in the summoning, right? Like a lot of times it's like a bathroom mirror, but that seemed to be left out of this particular experience. So oldest brother decides, we're gonna put this four year old in the, oh, well, I'll back up. So we're at the dinner table and there's this discussion about Bloody Mary. They must've like heard it in school or something like that. And then the good Catholic parents chime in, well, don't do that, you know, cause that's summoning the devil. So four years old, I get thrown in this linen closet and you're not getting out until you say Bloody Mary three times or whatever. And I still have like a visual memory of it. And it wasn't a woman's face. It was, I thought I was summoning the devil. And so I see this thing in the top left corner of this image I have, this like yellowish reddish figure starting to enter in the top left of the field. And I just freak out as a four year old would or anyone else for that matter. And yeah, you know, let me out of the closet and whatever. That was the end of the experience. But to this day, when I have migraines, it starts in that corner of the visual field and it'll sort of like bleed out from there. No, that was an interesting choice of words. It'll kind of bleed out from there. And it becomes this sort of glowing triangle. They're called auras in migraine world, you know, but and in fact, the first time I noticed that I was having a migraine, I thought I was either having a, I was pretty drunk at the time, but a lot of stories start like that, right? But this, I was looking in a mirror and there was this blind spot in it that was like spreading. And I thought I was either having a psychic awakening or losing my mind. I didn't know, you know, but again,

MM: Are those basically the same thing?

Baba: I don't know. Yeah, it depends on the perspective and the usefulness, I guess. Yeah, so actually my migraine discovery is linked in with my bloody first bloody Mary experience, which also, yeah, yeah, which didn't include Mary or water or it was just the straight up, down. So the first thing I ever summoned was the devil. I'll have that down on my official, when they burned me at the stake here, so now you could just.

MM: Yeah, I mean, like, I don't have, it's not one of these things that I obviously know about it. Like as a kid and stuff like that, I think of like, you know, the, but I don't, it's not something I ever did. I don't particularly like mirrors, generally speaking, especially like, I don't know that, does anyone like big mirrors at night? Like, you know, it's like, it's like, like, you're staring, you know, it's like, it is kind of a weird thing. But I did like, before, we're talking about this, I did do some like, you know, I did a little like the stuff that I looked into, they were trying just like, you know, when it was bringing it down the whole like, sort of scrying, something I didn't know about, it was like, women would do it like scrying thing in order to see like, what their future was, particularly like who their husband might be. It seems like it's linked to like a Halloween kind of game, you know, and sometimes you might see a skull, which means you're gonna die or something like that. You know, so it was like, it wasn't about like a spirit getting you, but then I did find this thing that was like, like it was from a book from the 30s and they were citing going through like Irish types of folklore, because obviously like a lot of different going back to like Egyptian stuff has like mirrors, scrying, things like that. And Chris, you probably would know, would be able to talk more about that kind of stuff. But the, but they were actually saying like, this translation was basically like, using the mirror, it wasn't so much like, it would, there was actually like a witch in the mirror, like, and like, you know, and it's like, and if you were doing things and it wasn't specifically like using the Bloody Mary thing to summon it, but like, but there could be like literally like, witches that live inside mirrors or inside of like the, like, you know, see sort of crystal balls that you, like they were talking about dunking them in water and you'd see an evil face or something. And it was like really weird. So it's almost like this idea, like, I wonder if it like stems from the kind of like, not just like scrying, but this like weird, like, you know, kind of a belief that there's some kind of spirit inside of the mirror, and you already just like in her, like the magic mirror, you know, on the wall kind of idea, it's like something's captured in there.

Baba: Yeah, but in fact, mentioning the magic mirror on the wall, it's kind of funny, like when you look at some of the old, like the Disney, the animated Disney's that are based on other stuff, you know, but up until a certain point, they actually like, they hang on to their occultism, you know, like, like if you actually listen to, okay, so like, what's Cinderella's at the one with the Bippity Boppity Boo and the, I believe so, yeah. Yeah, so that actual song, the Bippity Boppity Boo, there's all kinds of other weird language in there too. She's just doing incantations, you know, and that actual one, the magic mirror on the wall. I had always heard it mirror mirror on the wall, but it's magic mirror on the wall. And she summons up the witch queen or whatever, she summons up this like spirit thing that lives in the mirror. She's like, yeah, it's coming up, it's like a little mass, like, ooh, dude, help me, you know, you know, the spirit trapped in the mirror. And so, yeah, and that goes back to, so there's the idea. So you go back to old school magic, at least old school post-writing, but you know, you've got records of the use of water bowls for scrying. Later down the line, you've got Johann Tristhenius, was he a priest, I guess, and also a big person in ritual magic. A lot of the cooler stuff we have goes back to Tristhenius. And he has this thing about the art of trapping spirits in crystals. So there is this idea- Like Pokemon, you know. Like Pokemon, he was the pre-runner of Pokemon. You can't catch them all, by the way. You can't get- Can't catch all the spirits. You can, some of them are really difficult fish to catch. And in fact, more often than not, your result is gonna be reading a bunch of stuff from a book and choking on incense for a few hours.

Danny C: Oh no. So I'm curious, the idea of trapping spirits in crystals, is that related at all to like, like crystal energy, or they completely, you know, are they two completely different things? I mean, they

Baba: probably flap over each other a little bit because you've also got the idea of things that contain inherent power. So like if you get away from what some people call high magic, where it's, you know, spheres and planes and rays and things like that. And you get down to straight up witchcraft, where it's roots and sticks and, you know, blood and animal parts and things like that, you know. There's this idea that the thing itself contains like an essence. So I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of like the crystal stuff is like derived from that. Like this idea of like, you've got these weird, shiny things, these shiny stones, you know. I mean, you figure like before they're cut, you know, they're these glassy, smoky kinds of things. But then once they're cut, the way those facets are, reveal all kinds of distortions in how you look into it and how it treats the shape. It's a mirror, isn't it good? Exactly. Yeah. And so I think it just, it becomes, the popular idea with modern, contemporary, contemporary summoning is you need, you want a means of manifestation for the thing to show up. And so that can be like a billowing incense and like kind of think about the idea of like seeing like animal shapes in the clouds, you know, or a Rorschach test or something like that. So you've got this thing that's got some level of ambiguity upon which you can then experience this image. You know, we'll just leave it in those terms without making any metaphysical claims, but you've got this stuff going on. And so when you've got a mirror or a crystal, a crystal distorts things a little bit, you know, there's light coming in from different angles and stuff, and you can just kind of space out into it. Now, another idea is that actually like, because you're looking into this thing, that creates this illusion of infinite depth, that it gives you a surface to hallucinate into. It's kind of like the idea of, maybe we might have talked about this previously, the idea of like when you've got an empty space, like the boogeyman, right? You're staring into a dark closet, but that's infinite space as far as you can tell. It's just darkness, you know, and you can, that's easier to hallucinate something into. So if you're doing that, you know, staring into something with the theatrical underpinnings of this is to summon something, I think your experience of, your likelihood of experiencing something like that is much higher than just wandering into the bathroom at three in the morning, not wanting to put the light on because you don't want to wake yourself up, you know.

MM: Let's jump back to the Bloody Mary thing for a minute. I mean, I'll think of the most famous version of it to me, Candyman, the 19-90, maybe you think it's like that that's always weird. And I think it's like the distortion between the seemingly original idea of like, well, it's like a fortune telling thing, you know, or it's like, you know, a magic mirror giving you information, right? To like this maleficent spirit. It also seems to coincide with the whole like, well, we dare you to go do it. And the person is supposed to believe like, it's not real. And then the thing haunts you and eventually kills you for doing it. Like it's like, it's clearly not like, it's like, it's not there to like, it doesn't have any other purpose other than to like, like you summon the thing and it causes your demise. And I feel like that's kind of the modern version for like, like that I think of it when I think of like it being a kid that like, that's the kind of like, you know, like not just mirrors being scary, but the ritual itself is supposed to be like, well, you don't believe it to go do it. And then report back and then like, you know, and then it's like, I'm not kidding, died, you know? Yeah, yeah. It's like, you know, like five days later, he never came back to school or something, you know? Yeah, yeah. It's like, You know, it's interesting talking about

Danny C: mirrors. I can't remember who said this, but the idea is like, is anyone comfortable with mirrors? And I'm actually, no pun intended, reflecting on this earlier today. And I was thinking for me at least, I think I've seen too many horror movies where it's like the person is, they're in the bathroom or they're looking in a mirror, whatever, and they look away, but the mirrored image does not, or it's something like that, or it's like there's that disconnect between the real person and what happens in the mirror with that person. And like, there's always a part of you that's like, what if that happens? Like what if all of a sudden I'd like look down and like, I noticed in my peripheral that this thing is still looking at me, or like you see something behind you and you turn around. But there's nothing there. Like in my head, like that's where I am with mirrors. And especially like late at night, it's like, I don't even wanna deal with any that late at night. Around new time, like different story, but late at night when it's like, I gotta go back to sleep. Well, there's actually like a

MM: thing like, so there's this thing is called the Caputo effect is like what it basically is. And that when you are looking into a mirror and it's a dim light, you're actually, it creates like a distorted image that you see and the longer you stare at it, the more distorted it happens. It's like, it's just some phenomenon. And then like, I think they also did experiments where they were testing like, you know, neurotypical people versus people who have were diagnosed with schizophrenia. And because obviously schizophrenia is a little more to reality detached as part of the, you know, as part of that diagnosis, it's like, they would actually see even more stuff than someone else because it just has to do with like, it's this trigger that like, because like low light and staring at something that staring at a mirror long enough and you start seeing, you know, like reality is distorting your face, distorts. And they said it also might be linked sort of to things like, you know, body dysmorphia and things of that nature. Like, cause you'd be staring at this for an increased period of time and like over and over and you get this like distorted image of yourself that you then translate into your consciousness or whatever, you know, so this is like, so there actually is some kind of psychological effect that like, if it makes sense, like you would be like weird about that, like, you know, because it does kind of happen. You know, it's like, you know, if you're just, there's a, you know, attract phenomenon about it. So yeah.

Baba: Yeah, it's a, but back to the horror movies for a second, actually the horror movie that follows me around is Poltergeist 2. Yes, yes. And here's the reason. So first of all, I'm mildly freaked out by like weird Christian preachers and also fascinated. It's, well, that would be weird Christian preachers and another conversation.

MM: The evil preachers.

Baba: So I'll get the comments going. But Poltergeist 2, and I think the thing is, so if you've got something like Bloody Mary proper and Candy Man, okay, and even I'll jump across to Beetlejuice, which is not a mirror spirit, but it's the thing about how you say the name several times and they show up, right?

MM: And it's always three times, which is always a weird thing like, you know,

Baba: it's like-- I found other versions of Bloody Mary. Sometimes it's 13, once it was 47. I saw that too. Yeah, it's like, I was like, yeah. The variations on the Mary thing, we should definitely like dive into that. But yeah, the, but Poltergeist 2, here's the thing about it, Poltergeist 2, they were not invited. See like Beetlejuice, Bloody Mary, Candy Man, those you had to call up, you had to invite them, even if you were the kid that didn't believe. Or if you were like the one that was in the group that was doing it, I was like, come on guys, stop messing around, because there's always that one. You know, if you-- This is stupid, don't, you know. But yeah, so you've got that thing going on. But with Poltergeist 2, it's like, no, they just show up. They want Carol in. They want her powers. And they're gonna follow her around from one mirror and reflective service to another. It's any reflective service. They show up in puddles. I'm getting goosebumps here. It's like, it was talking about there's Christian preachers. (Laughs) But they'll show up in puddles and mirrors. Yeah, that did more damage to me than probably the actual linen closet experience. Because it's just that, and it is that thing. It's like you look down at the sink and then you look up and it's, (Screams) Speaker 4 And you gotta think, well, Speaker 4 would real spirits do it like that? Would they be like, oh man, this is gonna freak them out. (Laughs) When he looks up from that, watching his face, I'm gonna be there all like, yeah! Even the freaky look on my face. And the sound effect, like in the movies, you know, the sound effects in the movies are the thing that really sell a lot of the effect. It's not just that there's a different face in the mirror. It also goes, (Screams) You know, no, no. All right, someone else talk. I'm giving myself goosebumps.

Danny C: (Laughs) I'm totally with you on Pawter Guys 2. That freaky preacher guy with like, what's that line is like, God is in his pulley temple. Whatever he says, it's just kinda creepy. And he has like, look too. And everything about that is just like, nah, nah. I think I saw that once and I was like, that is good enough for me. I'm done with this. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, now when you're talking about looking down at the sink and looking up and aah! I immediately thought of like, you know what would be fun if we put like a scare clip, like a jump, I don't know what they're called, but like in the video at that point in time, and so when people are watching, all of a sudden, like this thing jumps and like you get the sudden sound.

MM: Something's behind you, oh yeah. (Laughs)

Danny C: I don't know if it would be that mean to our viewers if they would like that, if they're like, that's not done with these people, these clowns.

Baba: Yeah, we're just trying to get them so far. Let's scare them away. Guys, summon them, say their name three times. Yeah, bloody Mary. So variations on it. You've got Mary the first, who killed a lot of Protestants. Then you've got various people named Mary Worth, or various versions of Mary Worth, and that is usually she was a witch that they killed, she was a Puritan woman accused of witchcraft who they killed, and there are different versions of that.

MM: Wasn't there also one that was like, she was a person who killed runaway slaves or something like that?

Baba: Yeah, like, you know, on the site. Yeah, there was one that she was a healer in the village and was actually secretly killing the children of the village and then they went and killed, but again, that's another one where she's secretly a witch. Yeah, and then there's the whole, she's a teenager that was waiting for her prom ride to pick her up, you know, so it's like, or she was a hitchhiker, or she was a, like, oftentimes then she's like a murder victim, or she was hit by a car, or...

MM: I mean, it's weird that none of these things have to do with the mirror itself. You think it would be like she died getting them from a mirror or smashed over. Yeah, yeah. Like, it just feels like there should be something, you know, mirror related in the legend, not just like, well, she's just a mass, you know, murdering person or like evil secret witch or something like that. You know, it just like, it just feels like there's very little connection to the mirror thing itself. You know, it's a...

Danny C: And that makes some think, I wonder if it kind of started out as like this parlor trick, and then it's like, how do we tie this into something to make it more real? I almost wonder if it was like that kind of a backfill.

MM: Yeah, like, you could say any incantation to make it happen, and it just happened to become that kind of thing. Or it was like the whole idea of like, you know, people at some point were very scared of spirits living inside of mirrors, and this is a way to, you know, get people to not do that, you know, stay away from them. Like, I don't know, it's like, feels very superstitious. I mean, well, I mean, mirrors are like highly superstitious as well, you know what I mean? Like, there's so much, you know, just like, you know, things to do with luck and things to do with it, you know, like that are like, it is kind of a weird, you know, like, you know, like, like objects, I guess, too. You know, it's like, it's, you know, literally not just to do with like, like, old magic, but stage magic, you know, it's like, it's all smoke and mirrors, like when you want to do a trick, you know, like it's like, you know, this kind of thing. It's like, it's all like, you know, it's like, it's not real, it's like, it clearly has like, obviously the effect of like, things are in reverse, like it's not, you know, it doesn't even show like an actual, unless you have like a secondary mirror surface, it doesn't show you reality as it's even perceived, you know, like perceived, you know, it's backwards. So it's like, you know, it's like it's a mirror image.

Baba: And if you go to the idea of like, other worlds and things like that, that kind of idea of, when you get kind of different variations on Plato's versions of, you know, real worlds and imitation worlds, I mean, like he's got this, the concept of forms, you know, there's like this pure form of the world, and then finally descends to like what we have here. This is an approximation of this great form of the world, you know, the perfect chair, the archetypal chair, that manifests as the myriad forms of chairs, you know, that we get to enjoy. And so this idea of these other worlds, now like throughout history, there is one way, overwhelmingly, that people have gotten in touch with spirits, dreams. And that is overwhelmingly the way of talking to the dead. But what is that? Like, it's like a world that's not quite this world, it's a little different, there are variations, you know, things that it looks like this world when you're in that world, but some things don't, people that were dead aren't, or rooms that don't exist do, or, you know, that kind of idea. So it's like, well, and not to just tell you, the primitive minds of people of the past who are mistaking this, or, well, no, but think about how do you make sense of this, that you had every sensory experience of walking through this reality, but it wasn't, you know, it was this other kind of reality. And so like, well, what's going on? Like, what is the distrust of the mirror? That, you know, that it may be like a tricky thing, you know, and you, there's nothing, there's nothing to force it to show up in a certain way. And then if you add to it, the actual experiences of people seeing things distort, whether it's through tricks of the cones and rods of the eyes, trying to constantly refresh and get a stable image, or because when you give yourself a means of manifestation for a spirit to show up, they do. Then those are like the opposite extremes, right? You know, like one is like, it's merely the, it's just the eyes. It's just your damn eyes, you know? And then the other extreme is like, no, it's straight up. Spirits can do these things, you know, and then there are all kinds of explanations in between. But I

MM: wonder if there's a thing too, like, I mean, obviously, like mirrors up until general modern times, if you get like ancient times are pretty rare things, right? Like, you know, it's like, it's like, you know, usually a polished metal, something like that, you know, like Egyptian stuff, you know, it's like, so like, it's definitely like a tool of like the wealthy thing, you know, it's not going to be like something most people are going to have access to, right? So I guess it's like the other thing or like, you know, but you see your reflection in like the river or something. I think there might be just some kind of weird idea of like, this like being scared of something jumping out of the river, like a, you know, I don't know, a crocodile and eating you. And that's why you look down, see a reflection and something grabs you. Like, and that's why there's like some kind of like, is there some kind of ancestral memory kind of superstition kind of gets built on that idea of like, you know, anytime I sometimes people will see the reflections and they end up getting pulled under into a river or a lake or something.

Danny C: Well, what about this? I mean, this is a simpler idea. I mean, you guys heard of doppelgangers. Okay, and there are people that swear up and down that, you know, doppelgangers are a real thing. And I almost wonder if like the concept of seeing yourself in the mirror is almost like that of like the idea of a doppelganger. It's like that looks like me, but that's not me. I'm here. How can I be there? I'm here. You know, like a much simpler time, like going back, you know, hundreds of years or whatever, or, you know, 20 minutes ago, whatever. But I wonder if it could be as something as simple as that, that idea where it's like, that's me, but it's not me. It must be evil then.

MM: Yeah, yeah. Yeah, the the the like, you know, like the like the mirror universe of the stars. It's evil Spock. He has the evil.

Baba: It's interesting, though, because it does like sort of preserve that, that weird kind of practice of, okay, like going back to the idea of like, to show like who's gonna who you're gonna marry. You know, the question of can you see your future husband? I remember hearing a thing of like a variation on it. You look at a mirror in the dark and you comb your hair in the mirror and you're supposed to see your spouse in the mirror. But again, it's like you do this thing in front of this mirror. It's this ritual action. But you know, all these things are like these threshold experiences because like you're not supposed to do them. Like you're not supposed to summon up Bloody Mary. You're not supposed to. Um, you certainly aren't supposed to summon the boogeyman, but like you're not supposed to, um, uh, you know, go to the crossroads and meet the devil. You're not supposed to do these things, you know, when you step outside of like, what happens psychologically speaking, when you step outside of the, what I'll just call like the social contract of the things you're like supposed to slash are allowed to do, it's almost like you're in this ungoverned world. Like you've stepped outside of those things that when you're a kid, that's like, I don't know. It's like your parents and maybe like the church or whatever your authority figures are. But when you step outside of that, it's like, well, now you're in the world of, you're not really like so protected anymore. You know, you're, you're like, you're in the, you've crossed the threshold into the wild where the other things are. And, um, what does that do in order to like prime the mind for those experiences? Not to say that those experiences are not therefore quote unquote real, but what if one of the means of manifestation is a sort of stirred up, uh, mind of one that's on edge, you know,

Danny C: let's take it a step further. Let's take that step further. So let's, let's pretend for a second that, um, that Bloody Mary is in fact real, that you can in fact, summon this thing at will, more or less, you know, what are the implications of that? You know, you could, if you could do that, you, so, so my, my thing, I always go back to money because we're in the United States capitalism. Why not? Okay. So how could you make money off of this? I mean, you could like sell tickets to this kind of thing. You could, you can have this thing, you know, um, just to sure, sure. Proof of it. I mean, well, what does that do? You know, we got t-shirts made. I saw, I summoned Bloody Mary and I survived and all I got was this lousy.

MM: Well, I mean, that's the kind of big question is like, because the effects are so it's all random. Like, is it the thing that you summon it and it murders you? Is that if that's the case, then that's, that doesn't really, you know, that doesn't really, uh, is it just that it does like a weird prediction of like, oh, are you going to get, you're going to matter? Like, is it like a, is it like a future prediction kind of thing? Like, like you're like saying, like, it's like, so that would really like have like the implication because like, you know, if, if, if it was real, then you're something and it murders you, well, then that's not going to sell a lot of tickets. I don't know. I mean, we have things that can do that. I mean, we have things that can do that already. You know, I mean, that's like, that it doesn't have to do with the supernatural, you know? I mean, like, and if it's like a Russian roulette thing, like, well, it may murder you, but it's, it's guaranteed someone's going to get murdered. Like then again, we could do these things without supernatural implications. These are not, these are not difficult. You know, it's

Baba: more fun with the supernatural.

MM: Yes. But, but, but I mean, like, you know, but just like, but generally speaking, yeah, it's like, I think your, your repeat customers are going to be pretty low on the, you know?

Baba: But you could, you could sell tangentially related products because if Bloody Mary can show up in mirrors, then other things can show up in mirrors. And do you want them looking at all your little private parts, your tiny private parts? That's suggesting you guys, that's suggesting you guys have to worry about that. I'm not selling you anything. I'm just saying, you know, there's a whole market out there that doesn't, doesn't want their stuff seen. You could sell like a special cloth.

MM: Special mirror. Like me, you could just not buy mirrors. Like, you know, I mean, I can't say. Again, we already have, we already have ring doorbells and like, so I mean, Amazon has listening to places in all our, like most of our homes or, you know, so we already kind of don't have to worry

Baba: about messing up my business plan.

MM: We have, we have, we have.

Danny C: So let's hang on that for one second. So, so mirrors, I believe that there's a, a religion, I want to say it's Judaism, but I am not a hundred percent sure. Isn't there something with mirrors there? I don't know if it's like when someone dies, you're supposed to cover up all the mirrors. Is this ringing a bell thing? What does it sound for? Yeah.

MM: There is an old, like, isn't it more like an old, like Irish kind of, tradition, like in the house or something like that.

Baba: I think there are a couple weird death traditions around there, and I'm not sure if it's like so they don't get trapped there or like, that's a thing too.

MM: But because I think it would probably be at times where people would do like, you know, actual like wakes in your home, like where you're like, you know, you know, to, you know, they've just, you know, because you'd have like the body would be in the dining room, you know, it's like, and so that would probably be for something like that.

Baba: But again, it's hearkening back to a time when we were like much more acquainted with death, where, yeah, the funeral parlor was your parlor. Yeah. And the family member was probably being buried in your yard, you know, in the family cemetery, because y'all just lived on the same land probably from the.

MM: Well, even in the cities like my dad's home and he was like a little kid, I guess it was his what was it was his great grandfather when the he passed away was in like his like, you know, house in Philly. And he was just laid out like, you know, in the dining room, and they had to take the big windows off the thing to then move the casket out after the couple of days and out into the, you know, the basically like, you know, the funeral thing. And it was like, so it was like something like that. So even then they were still doing that kind of stuff. And it was like, you know, and they just like and his like, again, is something like whatever was like his great aunt or something was like a professional mourner like she just went would sit because people had to sit with the body like all, you know, you know, throughout the the couple of days of the wake or whatever. And like, so she that's all she did. But she like, she was she would go and sit, you know, with, you know, so it's like, so there's like, so that was yeah, so that like, definitely, that definitely did happen to even not in non, you know, rural, like setting, you know, it was like, I'm sure that's like an end vestige of that period of time, you know, but it's like, yeah, so it's kind of weird.

Baba: But the other thing, I mean, if you've got, you know, what are the implications if Bloody Mary were real, you know, and let's say she doesn't kill you. But this thing, this entity shows up in mirrors. Well, that that suggests something about life. It suggests that some form of you might exist after life. And that what does that do about how you treat people in this life? You know, so it's like, like the idea of the implications of an afterlife, depending on the shape of it and things like that can be vast. And so it's kind of like, yeah, that's, it's kind of interesting. Again, like what are what are the ramifications of something like that?

MM: But it does seem that mirror spirits are kind of vengeful spirits, you know, they do have a, it doesn't, they don't seem to have a chill vibe.

Baba: Like, probably like the because we know of the ghost story versions of them, but actually, there's an old practice, I believe it goes back to an old Greek practice, a guy, a contemporary person named Raymond Moody, created a way of doing it, it's called the psychomantium is basically you're setting up a similar like it's a scrying experience slash ghost encounter type experience, and you build this little room. And most people that do the psychomantium experience have an encounter with a deceased relative. And it's often not the person they expect. It's, and that's always interesting when there's a surprise element to it. It's like, Oh, yeah, see, you know, the coolest animal is my power animal, of course. But you know, it's like, we know when it surprises you, it's like, Whoa, hold up, I wasn't expecting Uncle Joe, like, like that, that's odd, you know. But it's a but they're not necessarily negative experiences. They're usually positive experiences. So any of you listeners out there that want to give it a go look up Raymond Moody and the psychomantium. It's kind of an interesting, interesting little thing and brings us back to Bloody Mary again.

MM: Should we put a put a cap on it and give a give some final the things and a and a rating?

Danny C: Let me I'll start this off, but I will say to you know, if anyone has actually had a Bloody Mary experience, I'd love to hear about it. So I thought that down in the comments. That would be awesome. I'm gonna read all of the I will I will encourage anyone that is remotely interested to give it a try. And you get bonus points of someone like Loxy on a linen closet that has a mirror or something like that.

MM: Also, also leave a rating on iTunes with your story, you know, or drop us an email. Absolutely.

Danny C: Yeah. So recognition, I think everybody or most people are familiar on a macro scale what Bloody Mary was even before listening to this. So I think from a recognition perspective, from from a tourist trap iconography, I think I would give Bloody Mary, you know, five monsters. I think, you know, without a doubt, it's it's if you've grown up in the United States in the past 30 years or so, I think I think you're familiar with what it's all about. Scary factor for me, I don't like mirrors. So I'm giving this like, like four and a half monsters. I, part of me wants to give it a try and like report back and like do like a short video or short episode with my experience. But I don't know. It doesn't return. I don't think I have the the bravery to do that. I don't know. One of these days, maybe, but I don't know. And that ties into like, is it real? I am like 99% sure that it's all your eyes. It's all your eyes adjusting to the dark. But there's that one percent of me that's like, I don't want to take that chance. I'd like that. Do I want to encounter it? Absolutely not. So for not encountering, I guess, do we rate that high or do we rate that low if we want to? I guess we want to encounter it. I'm gonna put that down on like a half a half a monster.

MM: Yeah, I think it's if you want to like, you know, like, like, you know, Chris might want to meet Bigfoot, but he might not want to meet me.

Danny C: Yeah, I'm zero, zero interest in meeting Bloody Mary. So that's, that's, that's my stance. All right.

MM: You want to go next? Yeah, I mean, yeah, I agree with Dan on the recognition front. It's pretty, I mean, like, there's so many movies, so many popular culture and the fact that like, the seemingly mirror spirits, at least to them in various cultures. And, you know, even in this general folklore of like something evil in the mirror can be like, you know, 11th century type stuff. So there's definitely that and then like the but I think the modern, you know, subbing it up scary is like, yeah, definitely a core playground, you know, scare. I probably put that definitely at like a for a scary factor. Yeah, mirrors, mirrors at night, just are scary, like whether it is the computer like effect thing, or it is that kind of thing. I don't think you like mirrors. Don't know why I definitely don't like them. And like, I definitely don't like them when they're really big. Sarah land. Yeah, yeah. I don't like a little side bar in the thing. My sister just bought in your house. And when I went over to see it, over the holidays, up in her bedroom, like my brother in law is extremely large. And he always wanted a mirror that he can see his whole self in like, I mean, because he's like, you know, six foot seven, six foot eight or whatever. And he like, they in their bedroom, their bed, they know this mirror that is enormous. And I the jokes said, is something going to come through that at night? That is a door. That's a that's an umbrella.

Danny C: That is a door.

MM: Yeah, yeah. It's like, it's bigger than the door. Like, that's the thing. It's like the bigger than the doorway. So it was like, oh, yeah. So yeah, so that's a scary factor mirrors at night. Yeah, I'm gonna put that pretty high. That's that's definitely in my core thing. Now my scaredness of the demon part of it. I don't know. But it definitely is that so I'll say I'll give that five. Is it real? I'm gonna say like, no, I just I do think it is something that's like we are messing around with like, you know, it's like, it's just like, it's it's seeing stuff at nighttime in the mirror, the distortion factor, the half asleep factor, or even like the, you know, dream factor. It's like, I think that's like, so I'm gonna put that kind of low. Like, I think it's a I'll give that a one. And then yeah, do you want to encounter it? Well, if it is real, no, I don't want to counter a demon that's going to kill me. I feel like I'm not sold on Dan's business of the tourist demons murders you. It's a bad business spot. I'm gonna give that a one. And yeah, so I think I think overall, though, I'll give it a Bloody Mary. She gets a solid three, I think a solid three because, you know, mirrors at night are scary. And so yeah, that's all.

Baba: All right, so I'm gonna go with recognition. I'm gonna go with the same bit. Everybody seems to know some version of this Bloody Mary story with its requirements and background and all that stuff. So I guess I'm just going to give that I don't know, should I just give that five monsters? Scary. Yeah. Yeah, it's it is scary. It's really scary. And particularly when you're likely to encounter mirrors in the dark. Well, first of all, it's already dark out, you know, you're probably you might be a little sleep deprived, you might be in that other world, you know, so you're a little more prone to the wiggles of the imagination. I'm gonna say that's really scary. I'm gonna give that I'm gonna I'm gonna give it I'm gonna give it probably like four and a half monsters for an aheadless monster. Because there's certainly more scary things than that. But it's pretty damn scary. And then do I want to meet this being? It depends. It depends. So while it would be scary, it depends. So if it's like the the dead witch, that isn't necessarily going to kill you. I think there can be advantages to gaining the alliance of a dead witch. So it might not be all bad. So I'm gonna put it on a three, especially since I try to summon things in mirrors anyway. So let's I'll give it a three. Because also, now I'm gonna give it a three and a half. Three, three, three, three and a headless monster. I kind of do want to encounter but under my own terms. So no poltergeist two rules here. regular summoning, and I'll bring an offering. So don't kill me.

Danny C: So one thing I'll add to that too, I wonder if this is like a beetle just kind of thing like what happens if you sum assuming assuming you can summon Bloody Mary, okay. And you have to assume because it's based on historical people, there's only one of them. Okay, let's just assume that right, right. So if someone summons the Bloody Mary, and like this thing comes out, it's getting where it's like clawing its way down the bathroom, trying to like catch up to you. And someone else goes to summon it. Is it like whisked away? Or is it like, do they don't see anything? It's like, oh, then come up. Not real.

Baba: Or do you get or do you get some kind of a thing like, we're sorry, all of our Bloody Marys are involved in wanting experiences. Definitely that that you're summoning is very important to us. Yeah.

MM: Yeah. It's like, yeah, the mirror just goes to duty. It's like, well, my mirror is broken.

Baba: Well, there's only one way to find out. And I guess that's, that's where we leave it. I wonder where we go from here, though. In terms of where does this lead us for our our next conversation?

MM: No, I guess, you know, I mean, they were talking about mirrors being, you know, thresholds, you know, and getting back to our threshold thing. Let's just talk straight up about like, the liminal spaces, like the weird spaces in between worlds. Yeah, like the back rooms, the stuff that's just the ordinary, like that, like labyrinths, like the lost in the nowhere in between worlds.

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