EP 11: Strange Connection Between Mothman and a Horrific Bridge Collapse
Wondering Monsters Podcast |
The Wondering Monsters Podcast team (Danny C, WDG, and Baba) dive into one of the most mysterious and terrifying legends in American folklore: the Mothman. First sighted in Point Pleasant, West Virginia, in November 1966, this red-eyed, winged humanoid has fascinated cryptid hunters, skeptics, and storytellers for decades. In this episode, the hosts explore the original sightings, scientific explanations, psychological theories, and even paranormal possibilities surrounding this infamous creature.
Origins of the Mothman Legend
Danny C opens with a summary of the creature's reported characteristics. Witnesses described the Mothman as six to nine feet tall, humanoid but winged, with glowing red, yellow, or green eyes and a leathery wingspan of seven to ten feet. The first major encounter occurred when Roger and Linda Scarberry and Stephen and Mary Mallette claimed to see the being near an abandoned TNT factory outside Point Pleasant. As they fled in their car, the creature allegedly chased them, keeping pace at speeds near 75 miles per hour.
Those encounters launched a 13-month wave of sightings across West Virginia that culminated on December 15, 1967, when the Silver Bridge collapsed, killing dozens. Many locals linked the tragedy to the Mothman, seeing the creature as either a harbinger of doom or a supernatural warning.
Sightings Beyond West Virginia
Danny explains that the legend didn't stop there. Reported sightings have occurred across the United States, from Illinois and Michigan to Pennsylvania and Kentucky, and even abroad in Japan, Mexico, Ukraine, and Russia. WDG jokes that Japan's version might be "Mothra-man," while the hosts note how popular culture has absorbed the creature into movies, books, and festivals.
Mothman and Real-World Disasters
Some believers claim that Mothman appears before disasters such as Chernobyl or the 2009 swine flu outbreak. The hosts debate whether this pattern makes the creature an omen, a psychic echo, or simple coincidence.
One particularly strange idea discussed involves government experimentation. Danny cites a military source who speculated that Mothman could have originated from a secret project, comparing it to bizarre Cold-War programs like Project Acoustic Kitty, where cats were implanted with listening devices for espionage, an experiment that famously failed when the first cat ran into traffic.
Debunking and Natural Explanations
Baba brings the conversation back to Earth, suggesting that Mothman might be a misidentified bird. The most common candidates are the sandhill crane and the barred owl, both of which can appear large, have glowing eyes when struck by headlights, and inhabit the region around Point Pleasant. Yet, as the hosts note, neither bird would chase a speeding car.
Danny dives deeper into biology and physics, analyzing wing-to-body ratios. Compared to pterodactyls and modern birds, Mothman's proportions seem implausible for flight, suggesting the eyewitness reports exaggerate its size. Still, that scientific logic doesn't make the story any less compelling.
From Cryptid to Pop Culture Icon
The hosts point out that Mothman has evolved from a local legend into a pop-culture figure. Like Roswell's UFO mythology, Point Pleasant now hosts an annual Mothman Festival, complete with vendors, speakers, and a towering metallic statue dubbed "Mecha-Mothman." Baba compares this to Pennsylvania's Albatwitch Festival, another celebration of regional folklore. These events turn fear into fascination, keeping local history and community identity alive through myth.
The Psychology of Sightings and Belief
Baba, drawing from his background in philosophy, raises questions about how humans know what they know. Eyewitness testimony, he explains, is one of the least reliable forms of evidence, yet juries and the public often treat it as absolute truth. Our brains filter millions of sensory bits every second, reconstructing only a tiny fraction into conscious experience. When something shocking happens at night in a rural area, the mind fills in the blanks and sometimes creates monsters.
The hosts discuss mass hallucination and collective suggestion, especially when multiple witnesses describe similar details. Danny notes that people tend to agree with others to avoid conflict, reinforcing and amplifying the original story. What starts as one strange encounter quickly becomes a shared myth.
The Ultra-Terrestrial Theory
WDG introduces another idea found in The Mothman Prophecies: that Mothman may be an ultra-terrestrial, not an alien from outer space but a being from another dimension or frequency of reality. This theory suggests the creature isn't bound by normal physics and could "phase" in and out of our world. Baba likens it to a "ghost in a runway," or a phenomenon that appears physical but operates on psychic energy.
Psychic Echoes and Tragic Energy
Later in the discussion, Baba explores the connection between Point Pleasant's WWII TNT plant and psychic trauma. The facility manufactured explosives later used in atomic weapons dropped on Japan. Could the emotional and moral weight of that event have left a psychic scar on the area? Baba speculates that the Mothman might represent a manifestation of collective guilt or a psychic echo of tragedy.
WDG counters with a more material view, wondering if chemical pollution from the TNT site might have caused hallucinations. Either way, the idea that tragedy, energy, and human perception can combine to produce supernatural experiences becomes a major theme of the episode.
Humor Amid the Horror
True to the show's tone, the hosts balance mystery with wit. From jokes about "owls in trench coats" to imagining Mothman being arrested like Batman, the conversation stays lively and self-aware. Even as they explore deep philosophical and paranormal questions, the trio never lose sight of the fun that drives the Wondering Monsters Podcast: curiosity, humor, and wonder at the unknown.
Final Ratings: How Scary Is the Mothman?
At the end of each episode, the hosts rate the monster on a five-point "monster scale."
- Baba gives Mothman three monsters, calling it "more fascinating than frightening."
- WDG rates it four monsters, acknowledging that something truly terrified the original witnesses.
- Danny C gives just two monsters, arguing that Mothman doesn't seem violent and might even be misunderstood.
Together, they agree that the Mothman's real power lies not in claws or wings but in its ability to reflect our fears, doubts, and fascination with mystery.
Modern Folklore in the Digital Age
The hosts close with an observation that today's technology makes it both easier and harder to believe. AI and CGI have blurred the line between authentic evidence and hoax, forcing us to question everything we see. Yet, as Baba notes, skepticism doesn't erase the allure, it only deepens it.
The Mothman endures because it sits at the crossroads of science, psychology, and the supernatural. It's a story about how humans confront the unknown, how belief spreads, and how modern myth is born.
Whether you see Mothman as a warning, a phantom, or a reflection of our collective imagination, one thing is certain: the legend still flies.
Links from the Show
- Mothman Sightings Map
- Flow: The Psychology of Optimal Experience (book)
- Is Mothman Real? Shocking Sightings Revealed!| Watch Expedition X on Discovery Channel
Watch & Listen to the Full Episode
Enjoy where the conversations of silly meet strange at the Wondering Monsters Podcast.
Watch on YouTube Watch on Spotify Listen on Apple Podcasts Listen on Other Platforms
Licensing Information
- Title: Entry of the Gladiators
- Composer: Julius Fučík
- Library of Congress (Public Domain)
- Podcast theme song version edited/arranged/mixed by Dan Swift
Unless indicated, images appear in their original form.
The following images were generated using AI from MyNinja.ai, NightCafe, lenso.ai, Gemini, or ChatGPT
Transcription
*Transcription was automatically generated and may contain errors.(Music)
Danny C: This is an interesting one, guys. So we're talking Mothman. We're going to pick it right up from last time. I'm not going to assume that people know the Mothman stories, so I'm going to give a very, very brief summary. Mothman, for starters, it's humanoid. Looks kind of like me, but different. 6-9 feet tall. It's black, usually a silhouette, usually from what I've seen, what I've read, heard. People don't usually get a really, really good look at it. So it's like black, at night, of course, silhouetted. Bipedal, it has arms. Its eyes are either red, yellow, or green, and they glow. So that's kind of standard monster eyes, I guess. The interesting thing is that, aside from it having arms, or people saying that it has arms, it also has wings. And the wings are leathery, like a bat. And its wingspan is typically about seven to 10 feet, which is important. I'm going to talk about that more later. Definitely want to come back to that. It screeches. People said it sounds kind of like the brakes of a truck. They gave other comparisons, but off the top of my head, I forgot what the other comparisons are. But it'll sometimes screech at you. It'll sometimes charge at the person, and sometimes it flies away. Now, it was first reported by Roger and Linda Scarberry. They were driving with Stephen and Mary Mallette. I don't know if I'm saying that name right, so apologies if that is incorrect.
WDG: Come at me, Stephen Mollett. (Laughter)
Danny C: So this happened in Point Pleasant, West Virginia, November of 1966. I believe it was November 15, if I remember correctly, that they were driving. The four of them, they're driving back from-- I think they were on a double date. They're driving near this old TNT factory. They see this creature on the side of the road. As they get closer, they give the description, which I already gave. Ends up chasing them. They're driving. It's flying. And end up getting up to about 75 miles an hour. This thing is screeching, clawing at the roof of the car, able to keep up with them. And then I don't know what happened after that. In my brief searching, I don't know if it just flew off. I'm assuming at some point it flew off. And then they reported it to, I guess, police, made the paper. After that, sightings continued for the following 13 months, 13 months to the day. So December 15, 1967, it culminates with the collapse of the Silver Bridge in West Virginia. And people say that atop the bridge, they also had witnessed seeing the Mothman. Aside from West Virginia, it has been known to visit other states, including Missouri, Indiana, Illinois, Wisconsin, Michigan, Virginia, Pennsylvania, Kentucky, and New York. And it doesn't stay stateside. It's also been cited in Japan, Mexico, Ukraine, and Russia.
WDG: I believe in Japan he's done as Mothra-man.
Danny C: I think they made a movie about that, right? Godzilla versus Mothra-man.
Baba: He's taller than six feet in that movie, though.
WDG: And he has a nice cult following and fairies and stuff.
Danny C: So aside from the Silver Bridge, Mothman has been attributed to other disasters, including Chernobyl in, I think it was, 86, as well as the swine flu epidemic in Mexico in 2009. So there are interesting things about the witnesses. Witnesses include average people. They just happen to see someone. Firefighters, military, police officers, usually more than one person at a time will see the Mothman. I watching this video and this one and this military guy had an interesting take. He said that he believes it could be a government experiment, essentially. It wouldn't be the first time that the government would have used animals as part as different projects, including bat bombs, Project Pigeon, and Project Acoustic Kitty, for instance. Have you heard of Project Acoustic Kitty?
WDG: No, I've heard of the other two, but I haven't heard of that one.
Danny C: I got to jump with this real quick because this is really funny.
Baba: Before you tell me what it is, is it too late to sign up? (Laughter)
Danny C: Yes, this project has been--
WDG: It's more about about, you know, you get a couple of turntables. And you-- (Laughter) (Mimicking Tuning Noises)
Baba: Let's hear about this Acoustic Kitty.
Danny C: Project Acoustic Kitty has been canceled. I think it was in the 1960s, if I remember correctly. But it was basically a cat. They trained cats. They implanted them with transmitters and microphones. And they were going to be used for spying. And during Project Acoustic Kitty, the very first mission, they were going to use it to eavesdrop on two men that were in a park, two Kremlin that were in the park. So they go ahead, they release this cat, and it proceeds to cross the street, and it gets hit by a taxi. Oh, that's-- So the very first project was a no-go.
Baba: Don't they know that cats don't really like being told what to do? You ever heard of one of these things?
Danny C: I don't know. I'm wondering if this was one of the-- an intern on the project. They're like, ah, we'll give this guy a try. This idea is not going to end well. But let's give him a shot.
WDG: Let's see. What's the probability that Project Acoustic Kitty is a 1970s progressive rock band or something? I feel like there's less than 0% chance certainly.
Baba: Tromasque Replica and Project Acoustic-- well, that was an album, wasn't it?
Danny C: Anyway, I had to mention that. So that is the long and short of Mothman. Still sighted up till the present day. Allegedly, there were string of sightings in Chicago near the O'Hare International Airport. There was a pretty cool video that I think was from that same area, if I remember correctly. It was kind of grainy. But you could see this thing flapping its wings and flying through the sky. And it wasn't nighttime, so you can actually kind of see it. Even though it was in the distance and blurry. But I got to be honest, I think it looked kind of CGI to me.
Baba: See, here's the thing that I find frustrating as being someone that's curious in these kinds of things. You used to have to really give some effort to debunk something that looked convincing-ish. But increasingly, it's just got to be like, AI. AI. And it's like, what? Taking all the damn fun out of it. You know? And then the hoaxers aren't going to have to be creative if they do create hoaxes.
WDG: Yeah, like you did. No more practical effects.
Baba: Ghosts are going to have to work so much harder to be taken seriously.
WDG: Yeah, yeah. That's-- What the hell? When you're talking about the sightings that are outside of West Virginia, the one of the ones right in Pennsylvania-- I came across this-- I didn't know this, that that also coincides with the same time frame as the point, The one that was in, I guess, outside of Pittsburgh, which I guess, as far as West Virginia goes, it's not tremendously far. I mean, you're in that-- and it was also in like 66 or something like that?
Danny C: Yeah, it was.
WDG: Yeah, so that one's got interesting because it's like the phenomenon hasn't taken off yet where there could be like, well, I think I saw "Mothman" based on this other thing. It was actually like a very similar thing that also happened at the same time frame before it would have become like a popularized legend or whatever. So yeah.
Danny C: It's pretty cool. I actually came across a map that has more than likely not all of the sightings, but it has a fair number of sightings from 66. There's a huge gap. I think it might be one or two in the 70s and then up to like the 2000s. But actually, it's mapped out and you can click on it and it gives you like the general description of what people saw. Very, very short. It's not a whole lot of detail, but still neat to see. But you're absolutely right. In 1966, outside of Pittsburgh, I wish I thought to check how close in proximity it was to the other sightings, but time-wise. It was definitely within that year.
WDG: We should throw that map in the link so people can check it out.
Danny C: Oh, it'll be in the links. (Laughter)
WDG: Nice. Nice. Yeah. So yeah. Mothman, harbinger of doom, right? Or a predictor of doom, I guess. Is that-- would that be right? Is that kind of the thing?
Baba: I think the debate is a little over whether-- OK, assuming the Mothman thing is a thing that-- Well, let's just start there. Yeah, like, he either causes it he is a sign that it's about to happen. So he either came and f-ed up the bridge or was letting you know something's gonna go gone. Something's going to go gone.
WDG: Yeah, something is going to go-- I mean, it's weird that like they do attack-- two of the sightings in the 60s are both attacking cars for some reason. And that seems like a weird way to communicate something bad is going to happen. Like-- It's a good start. Something bad is going to happen. I'm attacking your car. That's the bad.
Danny C: I would have loved to see photos of the roof of the car. I would love to see what that actually looks like. Is it, you know, barely nothing? Is it like really like, you know, deep, deep claw cuts in it? You know, what does it look like? That's what I want to see.
Baba: Yeah, and like-- so the folks that report the first ones in the Chevy hightailing away from the Mothman. From what I understand, the Mothman pieces out right around the time they get to city limits.
Danny C: Yes.
Baba: And they go to the police station. The police are convinced that they're convinced of the story they're telling, which has all ew can really ask for. And so they were very convinced, seemingly, that the-- that this happened. just the story itself, before all the other stuff, is weird enough. Just because if you think-- so we go to like the naturalistic explanations of what this was-- which is likely a place for me to be going. But it's been attributed to the Sandhill Crane, which has big red blotches right around its eyes. And it's a big bird that does appear in that area. Not black. Distinctively not black. But-- OK. It's nighttime. You don't know. The TNT area itself also reported to be maybe a source of contamination of waters and things like that. And so maybe there are mutated versions of these animals.
WDG: Three eyed fish.
Baba: That fly with big wingspan. That's a big wingspan for a fish. And then the other one being the barred owl, which is darker in color and does reflect red from its eyes if you hit it with light. But what the heck chases a car that's going 90 miles an hour?
Danny C: So that's a couple of things-- Yeah.
WDG: I was going to say, too, just don't become the crane thing. I have one funny story, too. Cranes don't chase cars. Now, they do when they fly. Their wingspans do seem rather big. When I was living in North Carolina for a couple of years, the townhouse we were renting backed up to a man-made lake and had a small, very small dock where you could launch a tiny little fishing boat, like something with a trolling motor, not boats. It wasn't like that. So a lot of people would come down, their trucks drop off, their boat go fishing for the day. Well, cranes apparently were making a nest near there because there was a lot of like that. And we had them in those areas. And this thing was huge. It was like the guy walked up to the dock. And I guess it was-- I'm assuming the male-- and they get very territorial when they're out there. The thing was walking up to the dock, it was almost as tall as he was. And its feathers were all up. And the guy was like, I'm just trying to go fishing. I guess they can be aggressive, but I still don't know the chase cars. But even so, I wouldn't mess with that giant dinosaur looking bird. It's like when they're the kind of territorial. I mean, it just feels like-- that bird is big. I mean, this guy wasn't particularly huge. But the bird was definitely bigger than most birds I would encounter in other places I lived. And it was like walking up towards him. It was like-- yeah. So it would be like-- sometimes animals just regular animals can be weird. But yeah, I don't-- but chasing cars doesn't seem like a thing they would do.
Danny C: So both of you said something really, really interesting that I want to tackle real quick. So the sandhill crane and the tallest heron, OK? And both of these animals, they could be the mothman, OK? Average height, three to five feet. Wingspan, six to seven feet. The barred owl, typically only one to two feet tall and three to four feet of a wingspan.
Baba: And I thought that was a more likely suspect because of the color and the-- Yes. It's got a rounder head.
Danny C: Yeah, if you look at photos of it and you look at drawings or whatever, it's like you can see the similarities. But it was
WDG: an owl riding a crane. He
Baba: It could be carried by an African swallow.
WDG: The other interesting thing-- The mothman is just an owl in a crane in a trench coat. That's it.
Danny C: The other-- I'll thinking of these two owls in a trench coat. The other two owls in a trench coat. So the other interesting thing-- so you mentioned dinosaurs. I had the foresight to look up pterodactyls. Because here's what I noticed. When I was looking up information about the various birds, I noticed that the ratio of their height to wingspan was like 1 and a half to to 2. I'm sorry, the wingspan to height was about 1 and 1-2 to 2. So if the animal's height is 3 feet, the wingspan is around 6 feet, give or take. It's an approximation. So I was like, well, let's look up pterodactyl. Because these are bigger creatures. Pterodactyl, 18 feet tall, wingspan, 36 feet. Now the mothman sightings, approximately 6 to 9 feet tall, wingspan, 8 to 10 feet. It's almost like a 1 to 1 ratio. And I thought that was very interesting. And I thought, well, I don't have enough knowledge on aerodynamics and physics in this area. But it's like, can wings that are that small compared to the body and the weight of the creature, is it going to create enough thrust to actually keep it airborne? Assuming it really exists? I don't know. But it's very suspect.
WDG: Well, I mean, that's the whole thing with the-- even when you get into other winged, mythological depictions of winged beings that have human-y features, whatever they are. Their wingspans are never big enough to give them-- it's like you think of not the biblically accurate angels, but the traditional medieval depictions of angels. They're like, oh, I'm coming to visit you or tell you something. Their wings are like-- whatever. Their wings should probably be like-- (Laughs) Ew. And also, too, their bones would probably have to be pretty hollow, which would make them pretty-- If you
Baba: look at the ratio of a moth wing-- Oh, here we go. Go ahead. I'm trying to figure it out. It's a little bit closer. There aren't a whole lot of stats on this readily available. But it's looking a little bit closer. So a moth body is right around 2 and a half inches in length. This is a particular moth. OK, there's going to be variation. It's actual-- No, it's-- never mind.
WDG: Yeah, I was going to say, it's got to be even bigger because moth bodies are minuscule.
Baba: It's way off. It's way off. Way off.
WDG: And if you pick the butterfly from Japan that's not Mothra, but the one that Mothra is based on, I think that wingspan on that thing is huge.
Baba: It's like-- Yeah, it's-- OK, so definitely not a giant moth then.
WDG: Yeah. But yeah, now that you're saying the crane kind of heights, I think that crane that that guy was encountering was like, if I asked him because I had to be looking down because I was kind of up on a high slope looking out my window from my desk, it was probably close to four feet. And with its feathers up made it seem more probably and its wings puffed more imposing. So yeah, that sounds about right for the crane.
Danny C: And that sounds to be terrifying, because we're not used to encountering something like that.
WDG: Yeah.
Baba: It's-- Yeah. Well, and so this brings up something else to mind, the airship. And I don't mean the airship of my dream for a steam punk future, nor of a steampunk world. But that kind of idea, boats floating in the sky that have been associated with UFO sightings. Now, we know that doesn't seem like a very aerodynamic thing. But that doesn't mean that those sightings didn't happen. And so sometimes things show up. They're not the things they seem to be, or they might not be the things they seem to be. And they don't seem to have the physics necessary to do what they seem to be pretending to do. So is it that? OK, so is something else showing up? And this is how it's showing up. But it doesn't actually need those physics, because it's not really creature like that or something.
WDG: It's not the whole thing that in the-- I came across this in term when they're talking about this. It was something like ultra-terrestrial or something like that. So I guess the theory is-- and that's in the Mothman Prophecies book or whatever. The Mothman isn't like an extraterrestrial. It's not coming from outer space. It's not aliens in a spaceship that are defined by the laws of physics. It's some other being that's literally like a dimensional overlay or outside of our perception of reality. It's something like that kind of thing, that type of idea. So I guess at that point, you could just blip in and out of weird spots of existence because you're not really in existence.
Baba: So it's almost more like a ghost in a runway. You're not like butterfly pinned to a--
WDG: Yeah, to our physical-- our same dimensional reality. I guess that's the idea anyway.
Baba: So I guess-- And that's popped up. I've heard that with, as we'll undoubtedly cover probably many times, Bigfoot. Bigfoot sometimes seems very much like a physical creature. The Mothman left scratches and things in the top of the vehicle, right? Very much like a physical creature. Big Man, Big Man.
WDG: Big Man? Well, he's a different-- He's a big man. I think I've met him. He's like six foot eight. Doesn't have any wings.
Baba: So Bigfoot will sometimes do very physical things associated with these wood knocking sounds and things and very physical kinds of footprints, right? Footprints and hair and stuff that is sometimes attributed to Bigfoot. But people shoot at it the bullets don't hit. It goes right through. Cops chase it. It disappears. They go after footprints and then the footprints just end in the middle of a field. So it's like, well, sorry if I dropped any profanity during all this. Because I almost just did another one. What the F? What the heck? What's the explanation there? So kind of acting like a physical thing, like a creature. But then this is like, well, bears and apes and things aren't known to necessarily disappear in the middle of a field. And so are we just dealing with-- are we dealing with a creature that is not bound by the kinds of things we're bound by? Or are we dealing with weird wiggles in what holds reality together at various locations or points in time or something? Which I'll shut up for a minute, but it might be worth going back to the whole what the heck Point Pleasant was in terms of munitions and warfare and things. So if I can go shut up for a second, step off camera to get my other tea, but I'm still listening
WDG: There's-- I was going to say, talking about Bigfoot thing, there's evidence and all. Do we know if there's actual physical stuff that the mothman leaves behind? Like you said, it attacked the car, but you said you didn't know if there was damage and stuff to it. But if there's no, I don't know, whatever, leathery skin or fingernails or-- because that's a whole different thing then, right? I mean, maybe it's just something that's not there that you're just seeing. That would be even more strange, right? Like it's like a mass-- like the mass hallucination or a mass kind of thing going on. That's how it's manifesting itself as. Because it's like-- at least you're saying with Bigfoot, there's footprints. There's stuff people find. There's a thing. But I don't know that-- I wasn't sure if there is anything mothman leaves behind.
Baba: A quick search isn't coming up with any physical evidence, but yeah, it seems like it's mostly eyewitness reports. I have my opinions on eyewitness reports too, but I don't want to dive into all that stuff. That's a different joke.
Danny C: I was saying about that earlier today. What we're getting-- and especially too, when you mentioned the idea of AI, and I mentioned CGI and all that. Yeah, we're getting to a point in history, in human history, where it's like you can't believe anything. You can't believe your own eyes. You can't believe photos. You can't believe videos. You can't believe other people. It's like, what can you believe? It's crazy.
Baba: Crazy. Yeah. And I mean, it was already really problematic. I have a degree in philosophy, which will ruin your life. Not just for employment, but it pulls the rug out of everything on you. But there are big problems with epistemology in general, how we claim to know what we know, and what we call certain-- and actually like under-- uh-oh. Mothman proximity alert. He's in the liminal space right now, but if he gets past Bloody Mary, I got a run. (Laughter) OK, so yeah, the-- I got so thrown off by my Mothman visitation. Philosophy, what we know. Philosophy and what we know. come from a book called Flow, The Psychology of Optimal Experience, or something in that effect, by Mihai Shixet Mihai. And it was a really good book. 1.2 million bits of information travel through the human sense organs every second. Of that 1.2 million bits of information, 134 bits per second comprise human experience. So what happens to the other 99%? If you had $1.2 million and had $134 the next day, you would be justified in saying, all of my money is gone. Technically not true. You'd be justified in saying it. Well, that's happening to our experience all the time. That's before you get to fakable stuff. That's just our experience. And then that is very malleable when it comes to the-- now, the numbers are actually more depressing when you hear contemporary estimates on what percentage is actually getting through, because those are old numbers. But it's long been known that eyewitness testimony is one of the least reliable things about, say, a criminal case, and yet one of the most convincing things for a jury, because people think that what they see is what they get on the whole.
WDG: Yeah, I mean, I remember the example that was just thrown around, I think of my high school psychology class, even, it was like a bank robber came into the bank. The woman says, I saw three of them. And it's like, where were you? I was hiding behind the counter. It's like, well, how did you see three of the people? There could have been two. There could have been what? How did you-- yeah. But it's like that kind of idea of you've convinced-- your brain is right there filling in the blanks of information, even if you don't experience it.
Baba: And we do that all the time anyway. Like, we don't realize how much of reality we're making up all the time, all the time. You can have-- I'll have to remember there's a great author on all this stuff. Lisa Feldman Barrett, I hope I'm remembering her name right. But she did all this stuff on how emotions are made and how we talk about it. And actually, what will sometimes or often happen is that we have a physical experience in our body. And then we make up a story to explain it. And so this will happen. This is actually common for people-- mild adult topic. But those that are consuming cannabis might experience paranoia. Oftentimes, the paranoia is because they're having an elevated heartbeat. And their brain wants to make up an explanation for why that is. So it looks for a threat. And what we look for, we'll often find, because we project stuff. And so your takeaway, listeners, for this episode, if you find yourself in a similar situation, ask yourself if maybe it's just your elevated heartbeat. And it's preferably legal.
WDG: Yeah, it's legal. Of course. Of course. Let's not get ourselves out of this.
Baba: We want to give the impression of being upstanding citizens.
WDG: Let's just jump back to the whole-- something about something like the Mothman. It seems though, it's not just a lot of these-- I mean, now granted, the encounter in Pennsylvania is one person. But a lot of this other one is experienced by multiple people at the same time. So they're filling in all of the blanks, if that's the case, altogether. It was like it's a-- and like Dan said, when people got to this police station and they reported it, it was like they thought that this happened. Clearly something happened to them. Leading up to the bridge collapse, was there more people that had sightings of it? Was it more man-- you know, there was like--
Danny C: Yeah, I want to say there was like 100 sightings over the course of the year, I think.
WDG: OK. That's a lot of really condensed ones, even compared to something like a Bigfoot or something like a thing like that, which makes it kind of-- definitely in that-- if it is a hallucination effect, it's in everybody there for hallucinations.
Baba: Yeah, and mass hallucinations are-- they'll just have to be a thing that we explore at that point. There are so many-- I mean, because oftentimes you'll have this with UFO sightings. And the connections between UFO sightings and called big man, but Bigfoot.
WDG: I think big man. It's the big man. Oh, no. I was like, this is the worst. You're doing a pitch, meeting pitch on coming up with names for do you like comic book bad guys? OK, I think it's your worst idea yet,
Danny C: so here's where I'm going with this. And kind of going from the idea of mass hallucination, I remember reading somewhere that people, when something happens, they tend to be in agreement with other people. They don't want to appear contradictory. So I'm imagining this where it's like, yeah, these two couples in the initial report, and they see this thing. It's like, I don't know. What is that? Like 10 feet tall? Yeah, yeah, it's got to be at least 10 feet. Or maybe it's like at least eight feet. Like, oh, well, maybe even 10. It's huge. And then people just kind of run with it. And then to keep up with the story, not necessarily like in a malicious way, but people kind of then say the same thing. Like, I saw this thing. Red eyes. These other people said it was 8 to 10 feet tall. It must be 8 to 10 feet tall. And they just kind of go along with the story, unbelievably.
Baba: Yeah. Well, and it's a thing. So there's this author. I can't remember his name right now. He wrote on ritual magic and stuff like that. And he had this saying, there are no clean feet in a muddy world. And I thought that was perfect because that's kind of what we're doing all the time. You don't get to sit people down in a lab and be like, OK, well, this is what their brain reacts like when they're looking at the real Mothman. And then it's not-- you don't get that clean stuff. You get these stories and you get these weird things. And it's mixed with all these other things. So like, people aren't that great at estimating heights. That's why they're like little things next to a Wawa or a convenience store for people that aren't from this little region. A convenience store doorway. There's like a height thing that people can be like, oh, he walked past it and he was six to nine feet. That's what I know. He's a little over six feet.
WDG: When you see one of those rulers on an underpass, that means when it's raining, don't drive down that-- (Interposing Voices)
Baba: Don't drive your Mothman under a low overpass. Yeah, so people aren't that great at estimating that stuff. And are the same people giving wingspans that are giving heights? Are they thinking about whether they're being consistent or not? Be like, well, it was like the height of a person or a little taller. Therefore, one to one and a half times the size of a person. Or, oh, and how big were his wings? Well, the wings were probably, I don't know, maybe six, nine feet. Well, it's like, are they thinking about it in ratio? I don't know. And not to defend the people at all. I mean, the people actually need more defense. No one's defending the people.
WDG: Something happened that freaked these people out. Clearly, whatever it was, it was freaky enough that they had to stop their dates and go to the police station, which is not usually something you want to just do on a regular night. It's like-- Especially when you're like high tailing it down the highway.
Baba: I was going-- I was going the speed limit.
WDG: And it was-- On a general night, as a teenager, when I was out of the day, I don't think I'd want to end that date at the police station. You know, it feels like a bad idea. See if there are any warrants for me. Let me throw this out there. I just said a little bit of a-- not so much defense of the Mothman whether it's real or not, whether what's the thing or not. But just defense as the Mothman is like modern, like a modern, cryptid, homegrown kind of hero that's reached high levels of popularity. I do like that because a lot of other things-- I'm sure we'll get into them at other times, even in North America, whether it's the Jersey Devil or the Thunderbird Bigfoot, which can be linked sometimes to the Yeti and stuff like that. These are things that are very old. They go back long, if not hundreds of years, Mothman's like, like, 60s, gets a lot of popularity. now he has festivals. He has sightings as far as all the way out to Japan. You know, it's like, you know, got to give it up a little bit for homegrown. And it doesn't seem like, aside from the attacking the car part, overall, it doesn't seem extremely malicious or something like that.
Baba: As long as the bridge thing was just a case of wrong place, wrong time.
WDG: I didn't see Mothman with some plasma cutter cutting the bridge. Gremlin style, like on the wing of a plane. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's like, yeah, he's not out there breaking the bridge down.
Danny C: I got to interject real quick. I'm picturing a news bulletin. And we're looking for the following person in connection to the silver bridge collapse. And they flash up this drawing. (Laughter)
WDG: Next thing you know, you see Batman and handcuffs. Like, I didn't do it. I was in Gotham City. That's the least-- I swear.
Baba: That's the least-- I was in my secret location with no witnesses. Yeah, I'm a Batman.
WDG: Not a Mothman.
Baba: Oh, God.
Danny C: It's interesting you talk about the festivals, though, because aside from Roswell, New Mexico, they've like a bit known for the alleged crash in the late 40s. And Mothman. I don't know of any other festivals that pay homage to a cryptid or something similar. Oh, wait, wait. "Albatwitch."
Baba: The "Albatwitch," which is also known as the Apple Snitch, is a Bigfoot-like character in southeastern Pennsylvania. In York County-- oh, God, I forget. There's a park. And once a year in October, they have "Albatwitch Day." And I wanted to go a couple of years ago, one of the authors that wrote one of my favorite Bigfoot books was there. And I wanted to bring-- I actually have two volumes of that book, because it's a two-volume book. And I wanted to get signatures. But "Albatwitch Day." "Albatwitch Day." If you're in southeastern Pennsylvania in the rough vicinity of York County, consider it. October.
WDG: I might be there. We're also in the Mothman Festival.
Baba: Yeah, there's a Mothman Festival in-- I believe it's in like-- We're Pleasant. We're Pleasant West Virginia. I think that's in-- might be around that time. I mean, the event-- the bridge event happened in December, was it? December. But I think they have it during nicer weather days.
WDG: Yeah, I think it's in the fall, if I believe. And let's say I have that cool big statue of Mothman in town.
Baba: Which doesn't look at all what you would think. It's like "Mecha Mothman." Throwback to Godzilla again. It's like a robot Mothman.
WDG: as far as putting statues of things in your town, that's-- I have to say, I'm going to give a little bit of-- before we get into the judging, but pretty cool points for having a much cooler statue. I mean, most people just have a guy on a horse, or-- guys flying kites in bad weather. I mean, these are not like--
Baba: Runner-up goes to-- not-- A cryptid, an actual creature that does have wings and a documented wingspan to body ratio. The Enterprise Alabama with the-- oh, damn, what's the-- The Bull Weevil. Oh, I was going to remember the bug. Enterprise Alabama. We probably don't have time for that story. But the short version is the Bull Weevil came in, messed up their crop completely, forced them to diversify crops, and thereafter they made more money than ever, and monument to the Bull Weevil in their town. A testament to how bad things can go good.
Danny C: So don't leave us hanging. What were the two crops? What did they have? And then what did they switch to?
Baba: It was cotton before everything. It was straight up cotton. And then they diversified to multiple things. I don't-- Listeners, please help us with our research by putting it in the-- Comments? In the comments. The comments.
WDG: We also consider his Punxsutawney Phil because he has magical power.
Baba: Apparently, that's a-- And is kind of obscure. But I think too frequently seen, even once a year he's frequently seen. By many, many people. Santa Claus is a cryptid too. Yeah, yeah. At that point.
WDG: Not frequently seen enough, apparently.
Baba: Weigh in in the comments is Santa Claus a cryptid. So let's talk about TNT. Hiroshima, Nagasaki, and Point Pleasant, Virginia. West Virginia. Sorry, guys. Sorry. Point Pleasant, West Virginia. Yeah, that's a big-- Let's not get things mixed up here. So Point Pleasant, West Virginia, was a manufacturing location for TNT that was used in the munitions, World War II munitions, the atomic bombs for Hiroshima that were dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. The largest single act of violence in the history of the species. Not getting into the ethics of war. That's way above my pay grade. But the largest act of violence in the history of the species. And a tragedy, undoubtedly a tragedy, for the citizens of those locations. Which also winds up being connected to prophecies around a tragedy in this other location. And so let's talk about psychic vibes for a minute. Let's talk about ghosts. And could this be a psychic event that is linked by these massive tragedies? Now, a few thousand people dying or whatever in the-- I forget what the total was for the bridge incident.
Danny C: I think it was-- It was less than 100, I think.
Baba: OK, so-- whoo. OK, yeah. Boom. OK. So a few dozen people dying in a massive bridge collapse, versus the untold numbers of people who perished on that day in Japan. OK, these things aren't even close in terms of the scale. But it is just really weird, the association of the sighting of the apparition with the TNT manufacturing facility and its connection to maybe foretelling this other tragedy that was to take place. So it's like-- so we've got mirror neurons as people. And we've talked about this before, because you're watching a sport that you've got a lot of experience playing. You actually have the ability to experience that more in your nervous system and to enjoy it more than someone that's never played that sport before. OK, and so when you see somebody that's-- when I see somebody go into a state of hypnosis, I can feel it in my body, because I've been there so many times. There, in quotes, again. So is there something going on with that, with tragedy? So you've got to take a leap here. OK, this is beyond-- OK, this is like the almost psychic mirror neurons. Were people reaching into the future of the area, experiencing this thing? And were they tapping into this tragedy vibe that was connected by this involvement in that? You see what I'm saying here? It's hard to draw these lines. It's very blobby.
WDG: Where's the whole monster thing come into play?
Baba: The people of the town manifested an apparition to externalize an unspeakable thing that was going to happen, that they might not-- and did their best to externalize it in a way that could maybe prevent a tragedy. Look, that's really reaching.
WDG: I was going to say, but just using that thing, like, it's like, I would say, like, just a counter thing. It's like during World War II, lots of people were making lots of stuff. And these things that were used in-- I mean, this is literally as far as the government secrets go. The atomic bomb creation was nobody-- people working on different things in different parts of the country had no idea at all that they were doing or why it was happening. There were so-- the only people that knew those types of things were isolated on a military base that they couldn't leave. So I mean, like, or the highest level of-- in the military and things like that. So I don't think the people would have known-- I don't know. I feel like that would have been a thing. And by the 60s, did they even know that that was a thing that their town was being used for? I don't know. I'm wondering if like there's-- but I was going to say maybe like-- it's just-- but did the TNT factory, though, create enough pollution that maybe it could cause mass hallucination? Is that a thing?
Baba: Can you coordinate mass hallucinations with chemicals?
WDG: Or just chemicals, you know. How much forever chemicals are leaching, you know, just into the--
Danny C: Well, so this is an interesting take on what you're saying, Baba, is that so-- when I envision people from the United States going to war in World War II, I envision young adults, 18 to 24, we'll say, somewhere in that realm. And I'm sure you had people outside of a higher, maybe even lower than that. But then I'm envisioning-- so they come back. And 20 years later, approximately, OK, because the war ended in 45. This happens in 66. 21 years later. They're now ballpark mid-40s-- young to mid-40s. And I don't know about you guys, but I feel like the way I view the world and humanity and people like our fellow brothers and sisters, drastically different now than when I was in my 20s. So is there-- if they had this knowledge that they're the facility in their town, we used to create this tragedy, you know, is that-- are they going to view that differently being in their mid-40s now and have some level of-- it's their fault, kind of, that idea.
Baba: Like, some kind of psychic guilt, even if they don't take it on themselves, it's kind of like we were part of this thing. But my thought on it is not so much the idea of, like, do the people of the town consciously know that they were part of it. So much as everything's connected to everything else in this little version of reality, you know, that we don't actually-- like, we affect things, you know, when we take these big actions. And when you take an action that affects that big-- that's that monumental in the big human story. Like, what does that do to the psychic landscape? I mean, I'm using metaphors here, but it's like we can think of, you know, in general relativity, space curves around an object and that's what gravity comes from. It's the curvature of space, not the attraction of dense things to each other. It's the curvature of space. So what if we think about psychic events like that? If we think about hauntings and things like that, or if you think about, like, major tragedies, like major emotional events as creating some kind of effect on the psychic landscape, I don't know. It's just-- it's one of those things of, like, what becomes possible? You know, at the edge of an ecosystem, you have more activity than you do in the depths of that ecosystem because you've got these two ecosystems coming together. It's got this edge effect. And so what happens when you've got that interface with our stuff anyway? I guess we should vote on monsters. We're running out of time.
WDG: Yeah, yeah, we're going to say-- (Laughter) From the fact that, like, yeah, mothman, though-- so are you saying, like, mothman's, like, psychic manifestation, then? Yeah. You're, like, a mass psychic manifestation?
Baba: Yeah. I've got to go first. I've got to throw my hat in on this. OK. All right. I think people really-- in Point Pleasant, OK, I think the people really were experiencing an apparition. Something like a poltergeist that does allow for some level of physicality, but also some level of psychic energy. And like poltergeists that may have some relationship to repressed stresses and things like that, maybe this is just how it was trying to do what it was trying to do. Do I think it's scary? No, actually, I don't. I think it's-- I think people are scary. I think the TNT thing was scary. Yeah, I think-- yeah, I'm going to give it-- all right, I'm going to give it three monsters, because here's the thing. If I encountered the mothman, now, I would run like the devil was chasing me. OK. But would I think it was darn cool if I could-- I don't know-- be a thing where mothman was supposed to show up? Yeah. Yeah, I'd like to do that. I don't want to be surprised by mothman. Three monsters straight across. Y'all go. I'm not from the South. You all go. Yous guys go. Yous go. I have them there.
WDG: OK, I think that something happened. They saw something, right? At least in the encounter with the car, whatever. I believe that that's like-- you don't have that-- something happened enough that it freaked those people out. I don't know what simply that was. As far as like-- so it's like, I don't know-- yeah, I don't know that I'm not sure about it being real or-- and some of the extra sightings everywhere else are just people mistaking it for something else. I do think it's interesting, though, the whole guy seeing it up in Pennsylvania, that's a very similar thing that before it got involved. So that's like-- there are sometimes weird things that are out there that we don't recognize or don't know. And people mistake things like the crane or whatever it is. But yeah, so I do think they saw something. I'm not sure if the mothman-- now, if mothman were real, yeah, I don't want to be driving along in the woods and have mothman jump on my car. I don't want anything to jump on my car personally, but certainly-- and if I saw a giant thing with glowing red eyes, regardless of whether I thought it was real, if that was my experience of seeing it, I wouldn't want to stick around. And considering mothman seems to appear when bad shit goes down, to this good chance, yeah, I don't think I want to encounter it. Now, do I want to go to the mothman festival? Yeah, I think that sounds fun. I like-- I do-- like I said before, I do like mothman. I like the-- I love modern folklore, modern cryptid-- like things that are coming up that aren't just based on the same like, oh, well, it has to be linked to something old or it has to be something-- I do really enjoy that. So it's like-- so I'm going to give both man a little higher rate than I normally would just because of also cool factor. I think both man's kind of cool. So I'm going to give him four monsters. And because I-- encountering it would be scary. And then I'd have to eat my thing of like, oh, mothman isn't real. And then both man pops up and I'm like, oh, god. So yeah, so I'll give him a four monster rating.
Danny C: So essentially coming into this one, I was definitely like, ah, no, 100% no. You know, I looked at the different sightings that people said, the whole ratio of the body to the wingspan. But Baba, I feel like you raised some really good points, especially the idea of people-- if they have a hard time judging the height, they could have a hard time judging the wingspan as well, which I thought was a very interesting point, something that's very obvious. Yeah, I hadn't considered. I think at this point, most people have heard of the Mothman, even though they might not know exactly the full story behind it. I think when the movie came out, the Mothman Prophecies, I think that kind of like put it on the map a little more. I don't know that I find the Mothman that scary, though. I feel like every time, generally speaking, it seems to be the case that most times when people encounter this thing, it just kind of like flies away. So it's like, it doesn't represent any immediate danger. So I don't think it's all that scary. I don't know. I think it'd be kind of neat to encounter it because like that, I don't think I would be in any danger. So I'm going to give this-- I'm going to rate this one kind of low, actually. I'm going to give this one just two monsters, two monsters.
Baba: Now, if you happen to see larvae that is three to four feet in length, stay away. That might be Mothman larvae. And then you might get the violent side.
WDG: Yeah. That's when they attack you when you're trying to go fishing.
Baba: And don't fish with Mothman larvae. You'll get a Loch Ness monster.
Danny C: I'll add to that. I do have two links to videos. I will throw them in the description. They'll be on the website. They'll be all over the place if you want to check that out, as well as the link for that map that I found as well. Put that everywhere too so people can check that out too.
WDG: So speaking of like, tragedies and bridges, I think next week is going to be our Halloween special, right? So we're going to do that. So we're going to talk about things that have problems crossing bridges.
Baba: Well, I guess we should we should we should fly off like Mothman to to a place we will not be seen.